Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:Josh Richardson's start to the 2018-19 campaign:

@ ORL: 8-21 FG, 2-10 3P, +/- of -5 in 38 minutes

@ WSH: 8-21, 5-11 3P, +/- of 0 in 38 minutes

vs CHA: 3-11 FG, 1-6 3P, +/- of -4 in 27 minutes

People are trying to make him out to be something he's not. Much more of a complimentary player than a rising star.

I feel like if Wiggins was doing that with that efficiency people would be all over him. I like Richardson but when you put on top that we are taking back a bad contract, the 1st round pick is not guaranteed to be conveyed as a 1st round pick (even though super likely there is still a chance) and we are locked into that team for 3 years with arguably 3 untradable contracts in Gorgui, Waiters and Wiggins. In my opinion Richardson is not even close to worth all of that.

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden wrote:Josh Richardson's start to the 2018-19 campaign:

@ ORL: 8-21 FG, 2-10 3P, +/- of -5 in 38 minutes

@ WSH: 8-21, 5-11 3P, +/- of 0 in 38 minutes

vs CHA: 3-11 FG, 1-6 3P, +/- of -4 in 27 minutes

People are trying to make him out to be something he's not. Much more of a complimentary player than a rising star.

I feel like if Wiggins was doing that with that efficiency people would be all over him. I like Richardson but when you put on top that we are taking back a bad contract, the 1st round pick is not guaranteed to be conveyed as a 1st round pick (even though super likely there is still a chance) and we are locked into that team for 3 years with arguably 3 untradable contracts in Gorgui, Waiters and Wiggins. In my opinion Richardson is not even close to worth all of that.

I think you, Cam and Monster have put together a good argument on the other side. In the end, my gut tells me that keeping Butler this season won't end well for the Wolves. I'm not going to put too much stock in Richardson's stats from the tine 3-game sample we have so far this season. His full season stats from last season provide a much more accurate picture of the player he is and the player he can be. He looks really impressive in his video highlights. I was particularly impressed and surprised by the quality of his ballhandling, including change of speed and direction.

Yet, while we've all read the same reports regarding the purported Miami deal, none of us knows for sure what was in that deal. Nor do we know what other deals have been discussed. So it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. So in the meantime, I'll just have to enjoy watching Jimmy play in a Wolves uniform.

Hey, let's not forget Caris LeVert in our mythical game of trade prospects.

That guy went 8 - 9 fg last night.

24.7 ppg and 65% shooting for the season.



Note: Obviously, that efficiency is not going to continue. But LeVert is another youngish player that's shown steady improvement in the NBA and seems to be continuing that trend this season. Was he ever considered by the Wolves? Offered by the Nets? We don't know for sure. But my point is that a young guy on the upswing with room to get better is what I want for Butler. Not a guy with "room" like Wiggins. We're in Year 5 and we still have to search and cherry-pick improvements. I want a guy who has shown he can improve by leaps and bounds.

My gut is telling me we are trading the wrong person. I will go on the record that we should be trading Towns - most of you put him up there on the star status, his numbers are good BUT, just like Love at the same stage - he puts up hollow numbers that do not result in actual wins. He does not impact the team in a meaningful way that Buckets does. He actually hurts his teammates by not playing defense worth a shit. We will never win a championship with him anchoring the defense, he does not get it at all.

Towns trade value should be at an all time high - send him somewhere for the absolute best defensive C we can get and some draft picks and call it a day. I am not worried about our offence, we were 4th last year, after 3 games we are 2nd...We need a center that will stop easy buckets - Towns and Dieng need to go.

We wont be able to get Embid, Gobert or Davis so maybe we can get Det to do the following:

Dieng and Towns
for
Drummond
Kennard
1st round pick (top 5 protected) - this will be a good pick

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Hey, let's not forget Caris LeVert in our mythical game of trade prospects.

That guy went 8 - 9 fg last night.

24.7 ppg and 65% shooting for the season.



Note: Obviously, that efficiency is not going to continue. But LeVert is another youngish player that's shown steady improvement in the NBA and seems to be continuing that trend this season. Was he ever considered by the Wolves? Offered by the Nets? We don't know for sure. But my point is that a young guy on the upswing with room to get better is what I want for Butler. Not a guy with "room" like Wiggins. We're in Year 5 and we still have to search and cherry-pick improvements. I want a guy who has shown he can improve by leaps and bounds.

Actually on this one we do know. LeVert is untouchable for Jimmy. That's been reported on some podcasts.

If the expectations are so low we are basically doing a deal to do a deal might as well start looking at what teams might do for rental prices for Butler. I'd also look at taking flyers on young players that would be restricted FAs that you could also walk away from if they suck.

My deal off the top of my head would be Fariid, Russell and some sort of draft compensation (even the Knicks 2nd rounder) for Butler.

I'm not advocating for these types of deals but stuff like that will be out there and I might rather do that than the much talked about Miami Richardson deal.

monsterpile wrote:If the expectations are so low we are basically doing a deal to do a deal might as well start looking at what teams might do for rental prices for Butler. I'd also look at taking flyers on young players that would be restricted FAs that you could also walk away from if they suck.

My deal off the top of my head would be Fariid, Russell and some sort of draft compensation (even the Knicks 2nd rounder) for Butler.

I'm not advocating for these types of deals but stuff like that will be out there and I might rather do that than the much talked about Miami Richardson deal.

A deal for players like that and I'd expect a likely lottery pick in return. Otherwise, I'm with Abe in wanting at least one young guy on the upswing with lots of upside on a longer term reasonable cap-friendly deal. Richardson fits that bill.

It's important to understand that just letting Butler walk doesn't leave us in position to compete in the free agent market next summer. Without Butler, we'd have a $102 million payroll if Teague opts in and we re-sign Tyus to an amount roughly equal to his qualifying offer. And that's before factoring in cap holds for our first round draft pick. I didn't include Aldrich either. The cap next summer is expected to be $109 million. The point is that we won't have any cap room to speak of unless Teague opts out. And we all should not it's unlikely we'd get difference-maker types to sign here as free agents. We haven't even been able to do that with Butler here.

If we were to do the Richardson deal, our payroll would be around $125 million with a luxury tax threshold of around $132 million. So we could stay barely under the luxury tax threshold even if we did the Richardson/Waiters/pick deal with Miami. And we'd have an extra 1st round pick that might be enough to jettison Gorgui's or Waiters' contract. Maybe swap Patton and the Miami 1st along with Gorgui for an expiring contract. I'll take that over losing Butler and ending up with no cap room to compete for elite free agents. And even if Teague opted out, does anyone really believe we could compete for a difference-maker in the free agent market? Talk about a long shot!

The benefits of the reported Miami deal would be:

1. We'd get a talented young wing w/terrific upside and a long-term team-friendly contract.
2. We'd get an extra 1st rd pk to get another young talent or use to trade Gorgui
3. We'd likely end up in the lottery next summer with the chance to draft a top talent.

Getting a guy like Richardson and ensuring a lottery pick next summer are both key because, with Butler leaving, this team has to have at least one other allstar player to pair with KAT. It seems clear to me that other allstar won't be Wiggins. We're simply not going to get that sort of all-star caliber player via free agency. So we'll have to rely on the draft or a trade that brings us a young player with that sort of potential. That's where we're at. Richardson and a lottery pick would give us two shots at a potential future all-star to pair with KAT. Keeping Butler would probably keep us barely out of the lottery with no additional young talent and not enough cap room to compete for elite free agents, which we probably wouldn't be able to lure here even if we had the cap space.

apollotsg wrote:My gut is telling me we are trading the wrong person. I will go on the record that we should be trading Towns - most of you put him up there on the star status, his numbers are good BUT, just like Love at the same stage - he puts up hollow numbers that do not result in actual wins. He does not impact the team in a meaningful way that Buckets does. He actually hurts his teammates by not playing defense worth a shit. We will never win a championship with him anchoring the defense, he does not get it at all.

Towns trade value should be at an all time high - send him somewhere for the absolute best defensive C we can get and some draft picks and call it a day. I am not worried about our offence, we were 4th last year, after 3 games we are 2nd...We need a center that will stop easy buckets - Towns and Dieng need to go.

We wont be able to get Embid, Gobert or Davis so maybe we can get Det to do the following:

Dieng and Towns
for
Drummond
Kennard
1st round pick (top 5 protected) - this will be a good pick

KAT isn't perfect, but he's the closest thing we've got to a franchise player. Drummond hasn't exactly anchored a winner either. The next front office/coaching regime needs to build a team around him that enhances his gifts and helps mask his weaknesses. I'm warming up to the idea of starting him at PF instead of C. He'd still spend a lot of time at C as teams tend to go pretty small at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters.

KAT playing the 4 or 5 isn't gonna really matter in today's NBA. Offenses are gonna get the matchups they want so if they want to make KAT defend the PnR they are gonna be able to get that matchup. It's nice in concept, but the days of hiding guys doesn't really work anymore with the move to matchup basketball. It's not a coincidence KAT is always defending the PnR and Gibson is not.

Q12543 wrote:

apollotsg wrote:My gut is telling me we are trading the wrong person. I will go on the record that we should be trading Towns - most of you put him up there on the star status, his numbers are good BUT, just like Love at the same stage - he puts up hollow numbers that do not result in actual wins. He does not impact the team in a meaningful way that Buckets does. He actually hurts his teammates by not playing defense worth a shit. We will never win a championship with him anchoring the defense, he does not get it at all.

Towns trade value should be at an all time high - send him somewhere for the absolute best defensive C we can get and some draft picks and call it a day. I am not worried about our offence, we were 4th last year, after 3 games we are 2nd...We need a center that will stop easy buckets - Towns and Dieng need to go.

We wont be able to get Embid, Gobert or Davis so maybe we can get Det to do the following:

Dieng and Towns
for
Drummond
Kennard
1st round pick (top 5 protected) - this will be a good pick

KAT isn't perfect, but he's the closest thing we've got to a franchise player. Drummond hasn't exactly anchored a winner either. The next front office/coaching regime needs to build a team around him that enhances his gifts and helps mask his weaknesses. I'm warming up to the idea of starting him at PF instead of C. He'd still spend a lot of time at C as teams tend to go pretty small at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters.

I remember coming into last season some of the shine had come off Drummond and people were saying he was overpaid might not be able to stay on the floor when it mattered and wasn't really that impactful. He had just turned 24. So last year he has a nice season hits 60% of his FTs gobbles up rebounds and the Pistons were running their offense through him and his assist numbers were way up. I get the idea of trading to Towns but if you really are committed to doing that you gotta get and absolute hall to do it. I don't think the proposed deal is enough but that's my opinion.

I get the center position or even if he plays PF is harder to hide on defense than maybe a perimeter player but the guy absolutely has MVP type of talent. Some shine has already come off of Towns and to some extent rightly so but if he his ability to shoot the ball a lot of guard would be thrilled to have that skill set. There is more there I feel pretty confident in that.