Camden wrote:Michael Beasley didn't give a shit about basketball. Derrick Williams didn't give a shit about basketball. Anthony Bennett didn't magically change into a good player when Kevin Garnett was here putting on a sweat clinic pre-game. Adreian Payne still looks clueless on the court and he's seen Kevin Garnett sweat plenty of times and he's heard the magical teachings too.
Sometimes, and this might be tough for some of you, you have to realize that some guys get it and some guys don't. Towns gets it. I feel strongly that he would be a great player with or without Garnett being here, and we need to stop giving Garnett credit for his development when most of it is Towns being a student of the game himself and putting the work in. KG could preach at Beasley all he wanted to in a hypothetical situation and Beasley still would have cared more about getting high than working on his handle/jumper/etc. That's not Towns' personality and that wouldn't be different if KG wasn't here.
Also, Towns is playing with the same intensity that he played with at Kentucky. He's just more featured here and is thriving in the role he's in. That's all there is to it.
We'll have to disagree on this one, Cam. Sometimes it's difficult to see intangible things watching a game on TV...much easier to see when you're in the building and can watch what you want to focus on rather than what the camera is focused on.
I agree that you see things at the game that I at home cannot see. You just choose to think every little thing that KG does matters whereas there are things that I see that are valuable and things that I think are meaningless. Also, when Towns becomes one of the best centers in the league, I hope we talk about how great Towns made himself become rather than how meaningful Garnett was to his development. That'd be a crock of shit.
I've been really impressed with KAT this year...far exceeding my expectations for where he would be at this juncture. I remember thinking to myself during the Lakers game that he looked more like a veteran than a rookie to me...that's saying a lot. But Khans makes a great point in the previous post. I watched Towns in 4 games in Vegas, and he was nowhere near the player we are seeing now. He got manhandled by guys like Tariq Black and Bobby Portis (playing out of position). Now he is outplaying veterans like Greg Monroe and Roy Hibbert. When KAT becomes one of the best centers in the league, and I think he will, he will likely credit his coaches and Garnett. I hope we will talk about how his success was mainly due to his talent and hard work, but certainly facilitated and accelerated by KG's influence.
No, I believe KG when actually on the court playing, both practice and games, has value and helps Towns. I've never once denied that. All this other stuff that the board hypes up as "mentoring" is close to meaningless, though.
Also, Jahlil Okafor looked like shit in Summer League, as do most rookies. Where was Jahlil Okafor's magical mentor that should gain a lot of credit for his development? Give me a break.
Q12543 wrote:LST, You yourself previously downplayed the mentorship thing and instead emphasized KG's influence in actual games. That's where I'm at - I think having a veteran, unselfish PF next to Towns that is one of the greatest defenders in the history of the game is helpful to Towns. In fact, I think having just one season of it is enough given Towns' talent and smarts.
Maybe I wasn't clear, q. Yes, my thoughts were that KG's influence was happening last year in games, but that I saw little impact when he was in street clothes. An "injured" KG had little benefit to the club (and thank god, because it helped our tanking). But I think his impact is much broader this year, because he has had so much time with these guys on the practice court.
worldK wrote:As far as mentorship goes, it helps those who get it and won't help those who never will.
Being around kg won't help the Derrick Williams, Beasley or Wes Johnson's of the league. Heck, Beasley had lebron in his prime taking him under his wing in Miami and he still finds himself out of the league despite his enormous talent.
But with guys like rubio, towns and wig, it will be a big boosts. These guys get it and will absorb everything they can from them until they can find their own formula of greatness. Guys like dw,Wes and beas don't respect the game and nothing will get to them. Its about the desire of the guy receiving the mentorship. Its just the way it is.
I agree with you, world, that some guys will benefit from mentoring and some won't. I hope that Wig is the kind of guy that will learn from a guy like KG, but I don't know yet. KG never takes a play off, and the jury is still out whether Wig is that type of player. I think that generally Wig plays hard on defense all the time, but he seems to take plays off now and then on offense...sometimes for periods of time. Wig is still going to be a very good player whether he changes his intensity or not because he is so immensely talented, but I think he could be a truly great player if he played with KG's intensity.
Q12543 wrote:LST, You yourself previously downplayed the mentorship thing and instead emphasized KG's influence in actual games. That's where I'm at - I think having a veteran, unselfish PF next to Towns that is one of the greatest defenders in the history of the game is helpful to Towns. In fact, I think having just one season of it is enough given Towns' talent and smarts.
Maybe I wasn't clear, q. Yes, my thoughts were that KG's influence was happening last year in games, but that I saw little impact when he was in street clothes. An "injured" KG had little benefit to the club (and thank god, because it helped our tanking). But I think his impact is much broader this year, because he has had so much time with these guys on the practice court.
Gotcha.
I have no doubt that KG is more of a help than a hindrance, but talent rules the day in the NBA. There is only so much he can do. Frankly. Rubio has a far greater impact on the team.
khans2k5 wrote:My opinion. Towns looked nowhere near ready during the summer league playing with young guys who are also trying to find their footing in the league. In just a couple weeks of training camp he has improved immensely. What's different between training camp and summer league? Practicing with and against Garnett. KG has been in his ear all pre-season long. Sure Towns probably gets it on his own, but you can't tell me KG has had nothing to do with his development when he looked shaky in SL and a couple months later looks a lot better. He went from a block hungry foul machine in Summer League to a more grounded defender who isn't fouling as much. You can't tell me he just did that on his own. That's KG working with him on defense giving him wisdom on how to defend without fouling.
There's never been as quick a turnaround on a foul machine to a guy who can play with more defensive control. No 19 year old has that IQ on their own because he wouldn't have fouled as much in SL if he had that high of an IQ already. His post game looks a lot better and he's not getting pushed off balance as much. That's probably due to taking reps against KG helping him develop his game on the block by defending him. Towns may have figured all this stuff out eventually, but no 19 year old improves this much from SL to now on his own. That's basketball knowledge passed down from KG combined with reps against him to speed up the development process and teach him the right way to do things the first time. KG is one of the greatest defenders of all-time. There's no way Towns isn't greatly benefiting from playing with KG (and against in practice) and learning from him. You're giving a 19 year old way too much credit Cam. This just isn't the same guy that was at Kentucky or Cal is one of the worst college coaches of all-time for underutilizing him as much as he did.
He was the #1 pick for a reason. Jaws dropped when he came in for workouts.
Also, there are plenty of guys that struggle through the chaos of summer league ball and then go on to look like different players in the regular season. Or visa versa. Summer League is just a glorified version of AAU ball.
Guys just don't learn how to reduce their fouling on their own in a couple months (keep in mind he had fouling problems in college also). It took Pek a year plus to keep his fouls down. I don't buy that a 19 year old has that level of IQ. Guys don't get pushed around in Summer League and then play with poise in the post against top NBA centers a couple months later with no time to have any real strength gains to help. I don't think there is any way his development is this far along without KG. If he's playing Dieng, NB and Payne in practice all training camp with no KG, he definitely doesn't become this guy this fast. You mention SL has little bearing on how a guy does in the regular season. His workouts mean even less because they are designed to showcase his skills, not challenge him the way a real NBA game would.
khans2k5 wrote:My opinion. Towns looked nowhere near ready during the summer league playing with young guys who are also trying to find their footing in the league. In just a couple weeks of training camp he has improved immensely. What's different between training camp and summer league? Practicing with and against Garnett. KG has been in his ear all pre-season long. Sure Towns probably gets it on his own, but you can't tell me KG has had nothing to do with his development when he looked shaky in SL and a couple months later looks a lot better. He went from a block hungry foul machine in Summer League to a more grounded defender who isn't fouling as much. You can't tell me he just did that on his own. That's KG working with him on defense giving him wisdom on how to defend without fouling.
There's never been as quick a turnaround on a foul machine to a guy who can play with more defensive control. No 19 year old has that IQ on their own because he wouldn't have fouled as much in SL if he had that high of an IQ already. His post game looks a lot better and he's not getting pushed off balance as much. That's probably due to taking reps against KG helping him develop his game on the block by defending him. Towns may have figured all this stuff out eventually, but no 19 year old improves this much from SL to now on his own. That's basketball knowledge passed down from KG combined with reps against him to speed up the development process and teach him the right way to do things the first time. KG is one of the greatest defenders of all-time. There's no way Towns isn't greatly benefiting from playing with KG (and against in practice) and learning from him. You're giving a 19 year old way too much credit Cam. This just isn't the same guy that was at Kentucky or Cal is one of the worst college coaches of all-time for underutilizing him as much as he did.
He was the #1 pick for a reason. Jaws dropped when he came in for workouts.
Also, there are plenty of guys that struggle through the chaos of summer league ball and then go on to look like different players in the regular season. Or visa versa. Summer League is just a glorified version of AAU ball.
Guys just don't learn how to reduce their fouling on their own in a couple months (keep in mind he had fouling problems in college also). It took Pek a year plus to keep his fouls down. I don't buy that a 19 year old has that level of IQ. Guys don't get pushed around in Summer League and then play with poise in the post against top NBA centers a couple months later with no time to have any real strength gains to help. I don't think there is any way his development is this far along without KG. If he's playing Dieng, NB and Payne in practice all training camp with no KG, he definitely doesn't become this guy this fast. You mention SL has little bearing on how a guy does in the regular season. His workouts mean even less because they are designed to showcase his skills, not challenge him the way a real NBA game would.
Whatever, no matter what I say it won't change your opinion.
I certainly don't think KG has hurt Towns that's for sure, but to attribute Towns play as a direct byproduct of KG is a massive disservice to Towns.
I certainly don't think KG has hurt Towns that's for sure, but to attribute Towns play as a direct byproduct of KG is a massive disservice to Towns.
BINGO. Completely agreed, Q.
I guess I don't understand why you and Cam are on a mission to prove Towns is doing it on his own with little help. Why is it so bad to say he's ahead of schedule because he has really good help? You act like that belittles what he's done somehow when it doesn't. It helps him be better, quicker which makes him look a lot better at the end of the day.
I certainly don't think KG has hurt Towns that's for sure, but to attribute Towns play as a direct byproduct of KG is a massive disservice to Towns.
BINGO. Completely agreed, Q.
I guess I don't understand why you and Cam are on a mission to prove Towns is doing it on his own with little help. Why is it so bad to say he's ahead of schedule because he has really good help? You act like that belittles what he's done somehow when it doesn't. It helps him be better, quicker which makes him look a lot better at the end of the day.
Half the posts on this forum are about posters proving themselves to be "right". I'm guilty too - so not trying to be a hypocrite . But I think that's what's going on here (both sides of the argument). At the end of the day - who friggin cares if it's KG mentoring or his own talent. He's playing great so far and that's all that really matters - right?
