crazy-canuck wrote:Rubio in trade talks and now the bulls are listening to offers for lavine.
Do you think the Bulls would let us dump Wiggins on them for LaVine? lol
They wouldn't even have to think twice before making that deal. Fortunately the Wolves wouldn't do it. Wig may be one of the least effective max players out there, but he is still a much better basketball player than Zach Lavine. The Bulls realize it, and that's why they are making him available. Last night Wig was plus 7 against a very good team, and Zach was minus 11 against a bad one...and if you review box scores, you will see Zach is a minus player almost every night. The guy is just such a huge liability on defense.
I know Zach is popular on this board, but this is all you need to know about his value. The Bulls have lost 5 of 6 games, and guess what their only win in that stretch was...a 16 point win on the road in the only game in that stretch that Zach missed! And his replacement in that game (Wayne Selden) was a plus 20! The Bulls front office may not be the brightest in the league, but they're smart enough to see Zach's one-way game makes him expendable.
crazy-canuck wrote:Rubio in trade talks and now the bulls are listening to offers for lavine.
Do you think the Bulls would let us dump Wiggins on them for LaVine? lol
They wouldn't even have to think twice before making that deal. Fortunately the Wolves wouldn't do it. Wig may be one of the least effective max players out there, but he is still a much better basketball player than Zach Lavine. The Bulls realize it, and that's why they are making him available. Last night Wig was plus 7 against a very good team, and Zach was minus 11 against a bad one...and if you review box scores, you will see Zach is a minus player almost every night. The guy is just such a huge liability on defense.
I know Zach is popular on this board, but this is all you need to know about his value. The Bulls have lost 5 of 6 games, and guess what their only win in that stretch was...a 16 point win on the road in the only game in that stretch that Zach missed! And his replacement in that game (Wayne Selden) was a plus 20! The Bulls front office may not be the brightest in the league, but they're smart enough to see Zach's one-way game makes him expendable.
Honestly I would do it in a heartbeat. Zach is trying to carry too much of the load in Chicago being their best player. Don't give me these one game stats, let's look over the season or career. Plus I think He's a much better 2nd option guy who can knock down the open 3 in space versus Wigs.
If you look at the career DRTG Zach is a 114 and guess what, Andrew is a 114. Identical.
Zachs PER this season is 17.7 while Wiggins is 11.9. Career they are 14.4 and 14.6. LaVine is getting better while Wiggins is getting worse.
Zach crushes Wigs in TS% .562 vs Wigs horrific .485. OWS goes to Zach this season obviously with a 0.6 vs Wigs -0.5. Yes thats a negative OWS.
Defensive Win shares this season is also close. Zach 0.9 to Wigs 1.1. Defensively Wigs has a very tiny edge. But offensively Zach crushes Wiggins. Not even close. Zach plays hard and Wiggins plays soft. The trade is a no brainer.
Zach is a better player AND he makes less AND he is IMPROVING.
crazy-canuck wrote:Rubio in trade talks and now the bulls are listening to offers for lavine.
Do you think the Bulls would let us dump Wiggins on them for LaVine? lol
They wouldn't even have to think twice before making that deal. Fortunately the Wolves wouldn't do it. Wig may be one of the least effective max players out there, but he is still a much better basketball player than Zach Lavine. The Bulls realize it, and that's why they are making him available. Last night Wig was plus 7 against a very good team, and Zach was minus 11 against a bad one...and if you review box scores, you will see Zach is a minus player almost every night. The guy is just such a huge liability on defense.
I know Zach is popular on this board, but this is all you need to know about his value. The Bulls have lost 5 of 6 games, and guess what their only win in that stretch was...a 16 point win on the road in the only game in that stretch that Zach missed! And his replacement in that game (Wayne Selden) was a plus 20! The Bulls front office may not be the brightest in the league, but they're smart enough to see Zach's one-way game makes him expendable.
Honestly I would do it in a heartbeat. Zach is trying to carry too much of the load in Chicago being their best player. Don't give me these one game stats, let's look over the season or career. Plus I think He's a much better 2nd option guy who can knock down the open 3 in space versus Wigs.
If you look at the career DRTG Zach is a 114 and guess what, Andrew is a 114. Identical.
Zachs PER this season is 17.7 while Wiggins is 11.9. Career they are 14.4 and 14.6. LaVine is getting better while Wiggins is getting worse.
Zach crushes Wigs in TS% .562 vs Wigs horrific .485. OWS goes to Zach this season obviously with a 0.6 vs Wigs -0.5. Yes thats a negative OWS.
Defensive Win shares this season is also close. Zach 0.9 to Wigs 1.1. Defensively Wigs has a very tiny edge. But offensively Zach crushes Wiggins. Not even close. Zach plays hard and Wiggins plays soft. The trade is a no brainer.
Zach is a better player AND he makes less AND he is IMPROVING.
Sorry man.
Ha, we'll have to disagree on this one. It's been well documented here that Zach is one of the worst plus/minus players in the league. It's also been documented here how the wolves played some of their best basketball after Zach got hurt 2 years ago. And here's all you need to know about why the Bulls are eager to move him...the Bulls are 4-3 in the seven games he has been out, and they are a dreadful 8-38 in the games he has played! Ultimately it's all about wins and losses, and Zach has always produced a lot more of the latter than the former. I still cheer for Zach because he is fun to watch, but making teams worse was and will continue to be his legacy.
crazy-canuck wrote:Rubio in trade talks and now the bulls are listening to offers for lavine.
Do you think the Bulls would let us dump Wiggins on them for LaVine? lol
They wouldn't even have to think twice before making that deal. Fortunately the Wolves wouldn't do it. Wig may be one of the least effective max players out there, but he is still a much better basketball player than Zach Lavine. The Bulls realize it, and that's why they are making him available. Last night Wig was plus 7 against a very good team, and Zach was minus 11 against a bad one...and if you review box scores, you will see Zach is a minus player almost every night. The guy is just such a huge liability on defense.
I know Zach is popular on this board, but this is all you need to know about his value. The Bulls have lost 5 of 6 games, and guess what their only win in that stretch was...a 16 point win on the road in the only game in that stretch that Zach missed! And his replacement in that game (Wayne Selden) was a plus 20! The Bulls front office may not be the brightest in the league, but they're smart enough to see Zach's one-way game makes him expendable.
Honestly I would do it in a heartbeat. Zach is trying to carry too much of the load in Chicago being their best player. Don't give me these one game stats, let's look over the season or career. Plus I think He's a much better 2nd option guy who can knock down the open 3 in space versus Wigs.
If you look at the career DRTG Zach is a 114 and guess what, Andrew is a 114. Identical.
Zachs PER this season is 17.7 while Wiggins is 11.9. Career they are 14.4 and 14.6. LaVine is getting better while Wiggins is getting worse.
Zach crushes Wigs in TS% .562 vs Wigs horrific .485. OWS goes to Zach this season obviously with a 0.6 vs Wigs -0.5. Yes thats a negative OWS.
Defensive Win shares this season is also close. Zach 0.9 to Wigs 1.1. Defensively Wigs has a very tiny edge. But offensively Zach crushes Wiggins. Not even close. Zach plays hard and Wiggins plays soft. The trade is a no brainer.
Zach is a better player AND he makes less AND he is IMPROVING.
Sorry man.
Ha, we'll have to disagree on this one. It's been well documented here that Zach is one of the worst plus/minus players in the league. It's also been documented here how the wolves played some of their best basketball after Zach got hurt 2 years ago. And here's all you need to know about why the Bulls are eager to move him...the Bulls are 4-3 in the seven games he has been out, and they are a dreadful 8-38 in the games he has played! Ultimately it's all about wins and losses, and Zach has always produced a lot more of the latter than the former. I still cheer for Zach because he is fun to watch, but making teams worse was and will continue to be his legacy.
A 7 game span is still far too small a sample size to derive a logical conclusion, they could have won all 7 if Zach played. We don't know!
Also the stats don't have built in preconceived notions or opinions. One being Wiggins is a much better defender, that's just not true. Wiggins gets a very small edge this season and over his career.
The stats continue to say Zach is the better player now, he's getting better and he's making less. It's a no brainer.
WolvesFan21 wrote:The Wolves also picked Glenn Robinson III right before Jokic was selected. I understand every team has whiffs, do that draft over and Jokic and Embiid go 1-2. Wiggins still might be top 10, it's pretty hard to hit home runs, but seriously. This many tries, no great player EVER drafted in the mid-later 1st or second round and yes, it certainly hurts to have a cheapfk owner who sells picks, because you can't hit a homer if you don't swing.
What made that worse is that we let go of GR3 and while he hasn't amounted to a whole lot he still would have been a decent bench wing which every NBA team could use. It's kinda crazy...he turned 25 last month.
Camden0916 wrote:I will pray for those that still think Wiggins is better than LaVine. How much regression is Wiggins allowed to show before you all abandon ship?
I think it is safe to say they are both net negatives and both overpaid
Camden0916 wrote:I will pray for those that still think Wiggins is better than LaVine. How much regression is Wiggins allowed to show before you all abandon ship?
I think it is safe to say they are both net negatives and both overpaid
Meh. If LaVine was surrounded by better parts, the plus-minus thing wouldn't be a big deal. Most of his other advanced stats are leaning toward positive or even decent. The one area I'd like to see some upward trend for the rest of the season is his three-point shooting. He didn't forget how to shoot, but his shot selection and primary role in the offense has made him take a lot of tough shots from deep. His ability to get to the line more this year is reassuring, but yeah, he's gotta get that three-point shooting back to the high 30's.
Meanwhile, Wiggins is trash. He's a negative or neutral contributor in practically every facet of the game and you can seriously argue that the rookie version of him is better than the player he is now, which speaks volumes about the man and the athlete.
Camden0916 wrote:I will pray for those that still think Wiggins is better than LaVine. How much regression is Wiggins allowed to show before you all abandon ship?
I think it is safe to say they are both net negatives and both overpaid
Yeah...neither has been proven to be a winner. It seems pointless to rehash the Wigs vs. Lavine argument when both have been losers their whole professional careers. Give me some Wolves players that help put more W's in the W-L department
crazy-canuck wrote:Rubio in trade talks and now the bulls are listening to offers for lavine.
Do you think the Bulls would let us dump Wiggins on them for LaVine? lol
They wouldn't even have to think twice before making that deal. Fortunately the Wolves wouldn't do it. Wig may be one of the least effective max players out there, but he is still a much better basketball player than Zach Lavine. The Bulls realize it, and that's why they are making him available. Last night Wig was plus 7 against a very good team, and Zach was minus 11 against a bad one...and if you review box scores, you will see Zach is a minus player almost every night. The guy is just such a huge liability on defense.
I know Zach is popular on this board, but this is all you need to know about his value. The Bulls have lost 5 of 6 games, and guess what their only win in that stretch was...a 16 point win on the road in the only game in that stretch that Zach missed! And his replacement in that game (Wayne Selden) was a plus 20! The Bulls front office may not be the brightest in the league, but they're smart enough to see Zach's one-way game makes him expendable.
Honestly I would do it in a heartbeat. Zach is trying to carry too much of the load in Chicago being their best player. Don't give me these one game stats, let's look over the season or career. Plus I think He's a much better 2nd option guy who can knock down the open 3 in space versus Wigs.
If you look at the career DRTG Zach is a 114 and guess what, Andrew is a 114. Identical.
Zachs PER this season is 17.7 while Wiggins is 11.9. Career they are 14.4 and 14.6. LaVine is getting better while Wiggins is getting worse.
Zach crushes Wigs in TS% .562 vs Wigs horrific .485. OWS goes to Zach this season obviously with a 0.6 vs Wigs -0.5. Yes thats a negative OWS.
Defensive Win shares this season is also close. Zach 0.9 to Wigs 1.1. Defensively Wigs has a very tiny edge. But offensively Zach crushes Wiggins. Not even close. Zach plays hard and Wiggins plays soft. The trade is a no brainer.
Zach is a better player AND he makes less AND he is IMPROVING.
Sorry man.
Ha, we'll have to disagree on this one. It's been well documented here that Zach is one of the worst plus/minus players in the league. It's also been documented here how the wolves played some of their best basketball after Zach got hurt 2 years ago. And here's all you need to know about why the Bulls are eager to move him...the Bulls are 4-3 in the seven games he has been out, and they are a dreadful 8-38 in the games he has played! Ultimately it's all about wins and losses, and Zach has always produced a lot more of the latter than the former. I still cheer for Zach because he is fun to watch, but making teams worse was and will continue to be his legacy.
The plus/minus stat isn't a very convincing one and it can be highly misleading. So much depends on who a player is playing with and when. The Bulls are a terrible team and that 7-game stretch without LaVine is obviously far too small of a sample to credibly support any conclusions about Zach. The individual stats cited by WolvesFan are far more compelling than the plus/minus when comparing Zach and Wiggins. Zach's far superior ball-handling and 3-point shooting add to his value over Wiggins. Then there's the salary differential. I know they're both overpaid. But the difference in pay between the two is enormous. Wiggins has 4 years left after this season with an annual salary that escalates from $25.5 million to $31.5 million. Zach has only 3 seasons left at a flat $19.5 million.
If the Bulls are willing to swap LaVine for Wiggins the Wolves should grab that deal before Paxon sobers up. But now a dose of reality. The Bulls would never do that deal. Why? Because they're not going to take on the remaining 4-year $110 million of Wiggins contract given what he provides in exchange for the remaining 3-year $58.5 million of LaVine's contract. Paxon's not the brightest bulb, but even he's not dumb enough to do that deal. However, he's the one GM in the NBA who might give us value for Wiggins. And LaVine would be great value for Wiggins. So Mr. Layden should be on the phone with Paxon as we speak.
