Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:KAT playing the 4 or 5 isn't gonna really matter in today's NBA. Offenses are gonna get the matchups they want so if they want to make KAT defend the PnR they are gonna be able to get that matchup. It's nice in concept, but the days of hiding guys doesn't really work anymore with the move to matchup basketball. It's not a coincidence KAT is always defending the PnR and Gibson is not.

You are right that you can hide players as much anymore.

But having a rim protector and space eater can help cover some of those blown coverages by altering shots, blocking shots, or just being in the way. So if kat moves to pf and gets beat, hopefully we have a defensive big to anchor. If not, no point in moving kat to pf.

Sorry Crazy, wrote my response before reading yours.

Cool and CC - I agree with both of you on this. It would be a huge boost to our defense if we were to move KAT to PF and add a defensive anchor along side him at C. It's so hard to guard guys on the perimeter now with all the rule changes. A defensive anchor seems critical in today's NBA. While I believe KAT's defense has been better so far this season, he simply isn't a defensive anchor and I don't think he ever will be. However, put him next to a Rudy Gobert type (Whiteside?) and you'd not only get the defense/shot-blocking of the Gobert type, but you'd also improve KAT's defense because he could focus on what he does best defensively. Other than Whiteside, I don't see any Gobert types who might be available in a Butler deal. I liked Mo Bamba and Jaren Jackson in the June draft as players with that sort of defensive potential -- which is why I wanted to deal Butler at the time to Memphis for their pick. Obviously I don't know if the Grizzlies would have been up for that deal where we would get their pick and Chandler Parsons, but I think it was realistic at the time. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed and Butler's trade value has been seriously compromised

The irony is that DeAndre Jordon Gobert and Whiteside are all guys that could have or would fit the bill and none of them were acquired via a lottery pick.

Good point. And remember that the Wolves sold for frick'n cash the 1st round pick we could have used to take Gobert. I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking on this one. You might recall I was livid that we didn't keep that pick and use it to take Gobert. I was also unhappy way back when we used our 1st pick in the 2nd round on Pekovic instead of D. Jordan. You might recall that leading up to the 2008 draft, D. Jordan was generally listed as a potential lottery pick. He then tumbled down the charts based mainly on bad workouts. There were probably other things that pushed him down so far. But in any event, he was clearly a lottery talent and he was a steal that year at #35. I was never a Whiteside fan, but he was taken with the 3rd pick in the second round.

Unfortunately, you got me thinking back on the Wolves many missed draft opportunities. How about 2015? Yes, Flip did the right thing taking KAT #1. But what about trading our 2 2nd round picks - ## 31 and 36 for the #24 to take Tyus Jones? I love Tyus, but there is simply no way he was worth the 1st and 6th picks in the 2nd round. That was classic Flip, God bless him, getting carried away with the home town kid and his "winning pedigree." Players available with those two picks included Cedi Osman (#31), Montreal Harrell (#32), and Josh Richardson (#40). Those names join the list of draft misses that includes Steph Curry, CJ McCollum, Giannis, Gobert and D. Jordan. For those who have been reading my posts these many years, you know I would have taken them at the time. Of course the list goes on and on. To be fair, I don't expect the Wolves to hit on all or even most of these opportunties. But how about just hitting on one or two? Oh, and how about developing young players once we draft them? What a pathetic organization!!

One question about pairing KAT with a huge, rim-protecting big like Jordan or Gobert?

What happens when the Wolves play one of the teams going smaller at the 4? Is KAT chasing them around the perimeter?

And remember, it's not 1995 anymore. Nor is it even 2015. Some teams would be more than welcome to invite the Wolves to post-up Gobert or Jordan on the block vs. much smaller players.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:One question about pairing KAT with a huge, rim-protecting big like Jordan or Gobert?

What happens when the Wolves play one of the teams going smaller at the 4? Is KAT chasing them around the perimeter?

And remember, it's not 1995 anymore. Nor is it even 2015. Some teams would be more than welcome to invite the Wolves to post-up Gobert or Jordan on the block vs. much smaller players.

Kevin Durant chases players around the perimeter.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:One question about pairing KAT with a huge, rim-protecting big like Jordan or Gobert?

What happens when the Wolves play one of the teams going smaller at the 4? Is KAT chasing them around the perimeter?

And remember, it's not 1995 anymore. Nor is it even 2015. Some teams would be more than welcome to invite the Wolves to post-up Gobert or Jordan on the block vs. much smaller players.

This is why I don't think we need (nor can we afford) an expensive full-time Center like Gobert. We need a Baynes or Dedmon or someone of that ilk that can be an asset against bigger teams like San Antonio, but then won't play as much against small ball lineups.

This talk about past moves and history made me thing about an obvious answer to a question that hat has been posed for months and years on this and other forums.

Who is the best FA this franchise has ever signed?

The clear answer although with a VERY unfortunate ending for the Wolves franchise is Chauncy Billups. That was a hell of a move by McHale and then Billups became one of the best FA signings for the Pistons.

If Sam Cassell doesn't injure his groin doing his dance...Trenton Hassell would have been the starting shooting guard in a finals. McHale gets and deserves to be ripped for moves he made while running this franchise and we don't need to relive his and David Kahn and Thibs etc moves. I'm holding Glen Thibs and Layden (or whoever comes after them) to some level of copentancy in acquiring some talent via whatever way possible. This franchise hasn't often done that but I'm going to continue looking through the lens of a franchise that should be able to have opportunities via trade, draft, free agent, G-League etc to improve the team. I'm not excited about a trade that may significantly limit a possible competent group coming in when/if the people in charge now get shown the door or if they stay they are limited themselves. I'm gonna keep expecting more and I'll live with the possible disappointment that...is obviously likely to follow. lol

I understand the anger directed toward Butler here, and the angst surrounding his likely departure...either through trade or free agency. But as we see how good this team can be with him, I keep looking for reasons he might be able to save face and say why he has decided to stay at the end of the year.

First and foremost is the money element obviously...he can make countless millions more with the Wolves than any team he goes to in free agency, and that is compelling.

But I wonder if Josh Okogie is another reason Butler may decide to stay. It seems that, right or wrong, there is something about playing with KAT and Wig that he finds distasteful. But Josh has the makings of a poor man's Butler...a lightly-heralded guy who leaves it all on the court, doesn't shoot very well, and focuses on very tough, effective defense. It's not preposterous that Jimmy may adopt Josh as a protégé, and take delight in both mentoring him and playing with him. A stretch, I admit, but perhaps a remote possibility.

longstrangetrip wrote:I understand the anger directed toward Butler here, and the angst surrounding his likely departure...either through trade or free agency. But as we see how good this team can be with him, I keep looking for reasons he might be able to save face and say why he has decided to stay at the end of the year.

First and foremost is the money element obviously...he can make countless millions more with the Wolves than any team he goes to in free agency, and that is compelling.

But I wonder if Josh Okogie is another reason Butler may decide to stay. It seems that, right or wrong, there is something about playing with KAT and Wig that he finds distasteful. But Josh has the makings of a poor man's Butler...a lightly-heralded guy who leaves it all on the court, doesn't shoot very well, and focuses on very tough, effective defense. It's not preposterous that Jimmy may adopt Josh as a protégé, and take delight in both mentoring him and playing with him. A stretch, I admit, but perhaps a remote possibility.

LST - I have to admit, I've been imagining scenarios in which Butler has a change of heart and announces that he wants to stay here long term. And I had the same thought as you about the possible impact of Okogie on Butler's decision. I watched carefully for any interaction between the two and saw absolutely none. That doesn't mean we're wrong in thinking that Butler might adopt Josh as a protege and decide to stay. It just means I haven't seen any evidence of a relationship between the two on the court, on the bench or in shoot-around.

Interestingly, Okogie and Luol Deng seem to have developed a relationship. The two of them were guarding each other one-on-one in pre-game shoot-around. You could see them talking and laughing with each other as they would deliberately foul each other. It was fun to see. The only other one-on-one interaction I've seen between a veteran and Okogie was Towns putting his arm around Okogie on the court during a break. I fear that Butler is too much about Butler to ever mentor or even develop an interest in another player. But we'll see.

I disagree, by the way, that Okogie "has the makings of a poor man's Butler." If "has the makings" means potential, then Okogie has the potential to be a Butler, not a poor man's version.

But back to our shared fantasy about Butler staying, I keep coming back to Butler's comments that the situation in MN "is fixable." He went on to say he doesn't think it wil be fixed. The question that has yet to be answered, at least publicly, is this: What specifically is this "fixable" problem that, if fixed, would lead Butler to change him mind and decide to stay? If it's trading KAT, it's not going to happen - nor should it! If it's trading Wiggins, that's possible, but not easily. If it's a promise to offer him a max contract next summer, that can't happen either without another Joe Smith debocle. Is it replacing Thibodeau? I can't image that's what Jimmy would want given the bond between the two. Is it as simply as replacing Scott Layden? I highly doubt it, but if that would do it, then Layden should have been fired weeks ago - correction, months ago. It might be more than one of the above, in which case I see why Butler was so quick to say he doesn't think it will get fixed. So back to reality. Butler is going to leave - at least before the beginning of next season.

Thanks for the observation about Butler/Okogie interaction, Lip...not what I want to hear to support my narrative, but interesting. Keep the reports coming.

I'm not surprised about the Deng/Okogie interaction. They are two hard-working guys with African birth roots, and that has to produce a natural bond. In addition, it's well-documented that Deng also took Butler under his wing when Jimmy was a rookie, so it's clearly in Luol's nature.

The thing that has to be fixed has to be something organization related as opposed to a specific player. Butler constantly refers to his teammates as his guys or soldiers, but nothing about the organization.

longstrangetrip wrote:Thanks for the observation about Butler/Okogie interaction, Lip...not what I want to hear to support my narrative, but interesting. Keep the reports coming.

I'm not surprised about the Deng/Okogie interaction. They are two hard-working guys with African birth roots, and that has to produce a natural bond. In addition, it's well-documented that Deng also took Butler under his wing when Jimmy was a rookie, so it's clearly in Luol's nature.

It's been reported by Shams or Woj and I believe Jon K that Butler Texted teammates including Okogie during preseason etc. it seemed like Butler had plenty of time to mentor or something with MGH last season so it seems he is fairly capable of doing some of that if he wants to.

I'd guess having some players like okogie and Tyus on the team would help the keep Butler cause but in addition to that this team just needs to win and play their asses off and actually play some defense. If we see more games like what we saw at home against the Pacers last night which means a fairly considerable effort etc...I could see Butler changing his mind. I don't think anyone would disagree than this franchise has most been soft not a ball out on both ends of the court type of team for...idk when. If that changes somehow in the next few weeks partly because of the moves by Thibs and Layden bringing in guys as well and Wiggins and Towns stepping up...I think Butler would have to reconsider whether he wants to go. I heard he fanned up Glen on the way to the bench last night.