WolvesFan21 wrote:99% chance they are tanking. But it is the smart thing to do. Get the young players some experience and see how they progress. Did anyone think they would win a championship this year? So what is the point of trying to win a few more games? To sneak into the playoffs and get demolished? It's shortsighted. Working towards a contending team is smart. Otherwise they would just max out at mediocre, and that's no good either.
Get to the playoffs more than once in 15 years. Win more than 1 playoff game in 15 years. Get past the first round more than once in 31 years.
That's it. Once they prove capable of those very low standards... then people can whisper about "championships" without it seeming like a pipe dream or an excuse to give the latest regime a longer leash to tout all the promise the franchise has... and keep their jobs longer.
Franchises like Portland and Utah and Indiana should not be ripped for "sneaking into the playoffs" or failing to win titles year after year. They should be celebrated for not tolerating abject losing FOR DECADES. They should be applauded for rebounding quickly to be relevant again.
Decent.
Sounds easy. But until Taylor's Wolves can prove that they're capable of being "decent" for more than 1 year... any talk about potential titles or contention seems like a fairy tale of epic proportions.
They will never have the players to ever do anything in the playoffs unless they draft and develop better players.
You might enjoy being Utah, but we can't even be Utah unless we develop these younger guys, see what we have.
The start is not since KG left, the start is THIS YEAR since Rosas and Ryan came in. What happened 5 or 10 years ago only matters to you and other fans. What happens now only matters.
You won't EVER contend if you don't build patiently UNLIKE what Thibs did. Who traded away future and went with all experienced expensive players and snuck into the 8th seed. The what? Start 5-15 the next season?
Patience is needed and in fact I like watching the young guys who play hard every night. You can't shortcut your way to success, it has to take time and remember the clock started this season. Not 10 years ago.
Patience?
The team has TWO #1 draft picks and max contract guys. It's been SIX years with one of them... FIVE years with the other.
And yet we're STILL being asked to be patient with them? NO. Either they have it -- or move on. The Wolves don't get their cake and eat it too with those "young and promising" guys anymore.
We're asked to be patient with guys like Kelan Martin or Graham or KDB? I'm not cool with soft tanking by sitting out the two #1 max picks in favor of developing G League randoms. Some teams are able to develop guys while still being decent or credible.
I'll grant Culver more time. He's a rookie.
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Yes. The "clock" started this season. Much like it started in 2017. Much like it started in 2015. Much like it started in 2011. Much like it started in 2009. Et al.
That clock is for the new regime(s) looking to keep their highly paid jobs for as long as possible. Time after time after time. We've experienced it more than virtually any other franchise in pro sports. Yet, we keep gobbling it up each time.
"THIS time it'll be different. We promise."
Eventually, it will be different. It has to be by sheer odds of luck or something. But I've lost my patience with it. And yes... that "only matters to me and other fans." But how/why is that a bad thing? Do we not matter? As fans, we're already marginalized enough. Are we now being marginalized by other fans? Should we just accept one Promise of Hope campaign after another forever... just because it's only fair to the latest regime?
It's fair to be disappointed with Taylor and the organization. They haven't produced results. But it won't speed up this rebuilding process either.
I like watching the Iowa Wolves compete against the Bucks and beat up on some others (even if the Bucks showed up half ass). I've let go of the frustration of the past. Giving these new players/coach/management a fair shot they certainly deserve.
Also while KAT and Wiggins sit and watch these rooks and G leaguers win, it just may light a real fire into them too. I really think it's a good thing all around.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:We'll find out if THIS time Wiggins and KAT are motivated.
The $300M wasn't enough. But maybe embarrassment will work.
[Note: Sadly, I'm not being facetious.]
They can't come back and play half ass can they (more so WIggins by far) I think KAT has mostly balled his time here. KAT may learn a thing about defense too watching these young guys and Dieng outperform him. Though Wiggins has shown some improvement this season too. Yes I think watching is good for them.
Money as motivation isn't really very good though either, especially once you already have so much (I think from my very mild success in my life comparatively). Both these guys as long as they are not buying private jets and yachts are set for life finically. So more money won't really bring them any more happiness. Money and ego satisfaction is only temporary anyways. You'll never be happy long term if you are trying to do so with things you buy. Some of the wealthiest people are the most sad. They realize it's all meaningless when most of the people they are around are only there to feed off them. The things are fun for a bit but they get boring too.
So I can't fully get behind the money as motivation. I think it is much more minor they most think. Most of it is really just the acknowledgement of their performances. So again, more ego gratifying. Which is fine but it's not really the money, it's the respect they feel they get from being a "max" player or whatever. Which is really meaningless in the end.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:We'll find out if THIS time Wiggins and KAT are motivated.
The $300M wasn't enough. But maybe embarrassment will work.
[Note: Sadly, I'm not being facetious.]
They can't come back and play half ass can they (more so WIggins by far) I think KAT has mostly balled his time here. KAT may learn a thing about defense too watching these young guys and Dieng outperform him. Though Wiggins has shown some improvement this season too. Yes I think watching is good for them.
Money as motivation isn't really very good though either, especially once you already have so much (I think from my very mild success in my life comparatively). Both these guys as long as they are not buying private jets and yachts are set for life finically. So more money won't really bring them any more happiness. Money and ego satisfaction is only temporary anyways. You'll never be happy long term if you are trying to do so with things you buy. Some of the wealthiest people are the most sad. They realize it's all meaningless when most of the people they are around are only there to feed off them. The things are fun for a bit but they get boring too.
So I can't fully get behind the money as motivation. I think it is much more minor they most think. Most of it is really just the acknowledgement of their performances. So again, more ego gratifying. Which is fine but it's not really the money, it's the respect they feel they get from being a "max" player or whatever. Which is really meaningless in the end.
I'm not saying money should be a motivator, necessarily.
I was on record that it would actually have an adverse effect on Wiggins. He was fully rewarded for NOT doing what he was supposed to be doing... with an amusing and sad tale of some sort of promise to Taylor. Are we surprised that a guy in his early 20s didn't suddenly improve when he was rewarded with money and fame and playing time like he was... by doing things HIS way?
I was on record that the best players in NBA history weren't motivated by money... they were driven by other factors... which led to them showing clearcut signs of improvement, usually almost every year, within their first 6 years in the league.
I was just pointing out that obviously it wasn't enough for them. So we'll try something new. I guess.
I agree Abe. I was against the max deal for Wiggins too. I didn't think it would work out, because of those reasons you mentioned. He wasn't playing winning basketball (hustling, rebounding, scoring efficiently, etc) so "honoring" him with a max deal was uncalled for.
WolvesFan21 wrote:99% chance they are tanking. But it is the smart thing to do. Get the young players some experience and see how they progress. Did anyone think they would win a championship this year? So what is the point of trying to win a few more games? To sneak into the playoffs and get demolished? It's shortsighted. Working towards a contending team is smart. Otherwise they would just max out at mediocre, and that's no good either.
Get to the playoffs more than once in 15 years. Win more than 1 playoff game in 15 years. Get past the first round more than once in 31 years.
That's it. Once they prove capable of those very low standards... then people can whisper about "championships" without it seeming like a pipe dream or an excuse to give the latest regime a longer leash to tout all the promise the franchise has... and keep their jobs longer.
Franchises like Portland and Utah and Indiana should not be ripped for "sneaking into the playoffs" or failing to win titles year after year. They should be celebrated for not tolerating abject losing FOR DECADES. They should be applauded for rebounding quickly to be relevant again.
Decent.
Sounds easy. But until Taylor's Wolves can prove that they're capable of being "decent" for more than 1 year... any talk about potential titles or contention seems like a fairy tale of epic proportions.
They will never have the players to ever do anything in the playoffs unless they draft and develop better players.
You might enjoy being Utah, but we can't even be Utah unless we develop these younger guys, see what we have.
The start is not since KG left, the start is THIS YEAR since Rosas and Ryan came in. What happened 5 or 10 years ago only matters to you and other fans. What happens now only matters.
You won't EVER contend if you don't build patiently UNLIKE what Thibs did. Who traded away future and went with all experienced expensive players and snuck into the 8th seed. The what? Start 5-15 the next season?
Patience is needed and in fact I like watching the young guys who play hard every night. You can't shortcut your way to success, it has to take time and remember the clock started this season. Not 10 years ago.
Patience?
The team has TWO #1 draft picks and max contract guys. It's been SIX years with one of them... FIVE years with the other.
And yet we're STILL being asked to be patient with them? NO. Either they have it -- or move on. The Wolves don't get their cake and eat it too with those "young and promising" guys anymore.
We're asked to be patient with guys like Kelan Martin or Graham or KDB? I'm not cool with soft tanking by sitting out the two #1 max picks in favor of developing G League randoms. Some teams are able to develop guys while still being decent or credible.
I'll grant Culver more time. He's a rookie.
__________________________
Yes. The "clock" started this season. Much like it started in 2017. Much like it started in 2015. Much like it started in 2011. Much like it started in 2009. Et al.
That clock is for the new regime(s) looking to keep their highly paid jobs for as long as possible. Time after time after time. We've experienced it more than virtually any other franchise in pro sports. Yet, we keep gobbling it up each time.
"THIS time it'll be different. We promise."
Eventually, it will be different. It has to be by sheer odds of luck or something. But I've lost my patience with it. And yes... that "only matters to me and other fans." But how/why is that a bad thing? Do we not matter? As fans, we're already marginalized enough. Are we now being marginalized by other fans? Should we just accept one Promise of Hope campaign after another forever... just because it's only fair to the latest regime?
It's fair to be disappointed with Taylor and the organization. They haven't produced results. But it won't speed up this rebuilding process either.
I like watching the Iowa Wolves compete against the Bucks and beat up on some others (even if the Bucks showed up half ass). I've let go of the frustration of the past. Giving these new players/coach/management a fair shot they certainly deserve.
Also while KAT and Wiggins sit and watch these rooks and G leaguers win, it just may light a real fire into them too. I really think it's a good thing all around.
I think the KAT "defensive issues" has snowballed to ridiculous proportions. Harden is a horrible defender, so is Curry, but yet their teams managed to hide that within the system.
There is also the chaotic effect that takes place when opposing coaches don't have game film to study, and lineups continue to change on a nightly basis allowing young under talented players to become a disruptive force.
Taylor is ultimately responsible for accepting the "we need to rebuild" mantra from each new staff he brings in. Taylor should be asking the question "what do need to do to improve from where we are". This team wasn't that far off talent wise last year. As Abe mentioned, we have two #1 picks making max money with over 5 seasons under their belts, so not worrying about wins/losses this season shouldn't be tolerated.
He may grade out as the worst starter on all-time great championship-level teams... to the point where he's targeted in the playoffs at times... but I don't know if that makes him horrible, at least in context of this discussion.
And for his own part, despite some very unflattering gifs out there... I think Harden actually has a favorable DBPM (for whatever that's worth) in recent seasons.
[Edit: I just realized Towns also has a positive DBPM according to basketballreference.com... so...]
I think what I really don't like about the Tank vs. Not Tank debate is the false premise that a team can't develop talent and try to win games at the same time. That's simply not true and there are countless examples of great players that weren't immediately gifted big minutes or an out-sized role. So this idea that we MUST see the G league guys play big minutes in the NBA otherwise "we won't know what we've got" is flat out false.
Also, the "must contend or bust" crowd should appreciate that yes, there are actually fans out there that want to see good, competitive basketball where you are more likely than not to see the home team win. That means perhaps 53 wins and a division title would be considered a success, even if we're booted in the conference Semis. That may not be YOUR definition of success, but please appreciate that lots of "regular" fans simply want to go to the game, be entertained, and see the home team win.
And this goes ESPECIALLY to season ticket holders. Lip is his own man on this topic, but I can tell you that my parents are about ready to drop their season tickets because they are flat out tired of all the losing and rebuilds. They have been loyal fans for 20+ years and all they want to see is a competitive, winning product.
Q12543 wrote:I think what I really don't like about the Tank vs. Not Tank debate is the false premise that a team can't develop talent and try to win games at the same time. That's simply not true and there are countless examples of great players that weren't immediately gifted big minutes or an out-sized role. So this idea that we MUST see the G league guys play big minutes in the NBA otherwise "we won't know what we've got" is flat out false.
Also, the "must contend or bust" crowd should appreciate that yes, there are actually fans out there that want to see good, competitive basketball where you are more likely than not to see the home team win. That means perhaps 53 wins and a division title would be considered a success, even if we're booted in the conference Semis. That may not be YOUR definition of success, but please appreciate that lots of "regular" fans simply want to go to the game, be entertained, and see the home team win.
And this goes ESPECIALLY to season ticket holders. Lip is his own man on this topic, but I can tell you that my parents are about ready to drop their season tickets because they are flat out tired of all the losing and rebuilds. They have been loyal fans for 20+ years and all they want to see is a competitive, winning product.
The great franchises focus on winning as quickly as possible. Look at all the teams that tank for years on end. There are way more examples of those franchises staying horrible for years than the teams who benefited from blatant tanking. We are going to be in a cycle of losing the talent that we tanked for unless we start building real teams.
I think your parents are right. Bottom line, we are highly unlikely to ever win a championship and the purpose of all of this is entertainment. So lets be entertained by the home team.
Q12543 wrote:I think what I really don't like about the Tank vs. Not Tank debate is the false premise that a team can't develop talent and try to win games at the same time. That's simply not true and there are countless examples of great players that weren't immediately gifted big minutes or an out-sized role. So this idea that we MUST see the G league guys play big minutes in the NBA otherwise "we won't know what we've got" is flat out false.
Also, the "must contend or bust" crowd should appreciate that yes, there are actually fans out there that want to see good, competitive basketball where you are more likely than not to see the home team win. That means perhaps 53 wins and a division title would be considered a success, even if we're booted in the conference Semis. That may not be YOUR definition of success, but please appreciate that lots of "regular" fans simply want to go to the game, be entertained, and see the home team win.
And this goes ESPECIALLY to season ticket holders. Lip is his own man on this topic, but I can tell you that my parents are about ready to drop their season tickets because they are flat out tired of all the losing and rebuilds. They have been loyal fans for 20+ years and all they want to see is a competitive, winning product.
Playing in real NBA games far surpasses as much G league action or practice though. You really don't know how players are going to be until they prove it on the main level. So not playing experienced players is a major benefit for sure. Those players themselves don't know how good they will be. I just know from playing in competitive sports myself. You can only do so much in practice or against inferior competition. That's why I didn't like seeing Culver get so little minutes some games. You can't get better from the bench. You need to make mistakes or make progression by doing it on the court. Then you can do film work, see what you did wrong, etc. Work more one on one with coaches, instead of having others taking up the practice reps. The list goes on. Opportunity to succeed is half the battle for these lower tiered players.
