FNG wrote:That's my narrative Doper is referring to, D-Loser. I prefer Ricky's defense to DLO's.
Sample size, doper, sample size! If we were to take just one game against the Knicks when Ricky made 3 out of his 5 3-point shots and concluded on his long-range shooting, we would declare him elite! And if we were to judge the Rubio/JO backcourt just using the second half last night, we would say both are sieves on defense. But we have career defensive data on Ricky that rates him as an above average defender, and elite just last season, and rates DLO and Beasley as consistently at the bottom of their positions on defense. You just can't argue with the data. Rubio and JO had a terrible defensive second half last night, as did the entire team, but to try to argue a DLO/Beas backcourt is on par defensively with a Rubio/JO backcourt is a non-starter.
There aren't many PG's who can consistently stay in front of their man, and sadly none on our roster...I would argue that only 19-year-old McDaniels has the requisite natural instincts and lateral quickness to keep his man in front of him more often than not. What's more important to me in today's PnR centric offenses is what happens after the PG beats the defender...how does our PG/SG defend the other man if they can't fight through the screen (as none of our PGs can) and how well do they rotate. Unfortunately DLO and Beas are unbelievably bad at this part of the game, and while they can both score, I think we all know that is not a winning backcourt defensively.
FNG, The narrative existed before your presence here. People who love Ricky have been trying to find creative ways to mark his value through nuances in advanced stats forever now. Saying sample size doesn't change the problematic application of advanced stats. There is no stat on earth that can make Ricky move he feet faster or gain the tenacity to get over screens. Its why many great defensive coaches needed to let him go.
kekgeek1 wrote:Wolves 1-7 with Kat and without Dlo
So DLO is better than KAT? Is that what you're trying to stand on?
Kat is by far better. Just there is was a narrative that Dlo sucks and the Wolves would be significantly better without Dlo. That has not been the case. Wolves have struggled to win at a better rare since Kat has returned. Also for how good Kat is im worried about him he can't will the team to just one win. I'm worried Kat will ask out and I'm worried if Kat wants to stay is he worth the super max
It hasn't shown up in the win-loss column, but we have been better without DLO. We've been much more competitive night in and night out. I share your concerns with KAT. If he's as great as this board thinks he is he should occasionally be able to put this team on his back and get us a win. He's really a #2 on a contending level team.
We sure as shit wouldn't have gone 1-9 since Karl-Anthony Towns returned if D'Angelo Russell would have been healthy. And that's while acknowledging Ricky Rubio had a couple of really nice games over that stretch.
kekgeek1 wrote:Wolves 1-7 with Kat and without Dlo
So DLO is better than KAT? Is that what you're trying to stand on?
Kat is by far better. Just there is was a narrative that Dlo sucks and the Wolves would be significantly better without Dlo. That has not been the case. Wolves have struggled to win at a better rare since Kat has returned. Also for how good Kat is im worried about him he can't will the team to just one win. I'm worried Kat will ask out and I'm worried if Kat wants to stay is he worth the super max
Mmmm, not sure if anyone other than KG4Ever and may be FNG make this claim. My problem with DLO is that he doesn't appear to make much of a difference to the W-L column, and for that matter, neither has KAT. But I would never say either one literally makes the team worse by their presence.
The reality is this team just flat out sucks right now no matter who is on the floor. I have run out of players and coaches to blame as it seemingly makes no difference who plays, who coaches, etc.. I'm simply blaming it on a losing culture that permeates the organization from top to bottom, as I have run out of explanations at this point.
Camden wrote:We sure as shit wouldn't have gone 1-9 since Karl-Anthony Towns returned if D'Angelo Russell would have been healthy. And that's while acknowledging Ricky Rubio had a couple of really nice games over that stretch.
OK, may be 2-8 with DLO. Yay.
Now even McLaughlin is underachieving. DLO, Rubio, and McLaughlin have all regressed this season. Our point guard play sucks, plain and simple.
Camden wrote:We sure as shit wouldn't have gone 1-9 since Karl-Anthony Towns returned if D'Angelo Russell would have been healthy. And that's while acknowledging Ricky Rubio had a couple of really nice games over that stretch.
OK, may be 2-8 with DLO. Yay.
Now even McLaughlin is underachieving. DLO, Rubio, and McLaughlin have all regressed this season. Our point guard play sucks, plain and simple.
Considering a lot of those games were close losses in which the shot-making just wasn't there late for Minnesota, especially in the games that went into overtime, I'm thinking they go 4-6 or 5-5 over that span, which is a far cry from the 1-9 that they did go.
But my comment was targeted towards those that believe the team is worse with D-Lo than without. That's a folly.
I agree that the team isn't worse with DLO. It's just not significantly better with him. The reality is this. KAT is by far our best and only true all-star caliber player. DLO hasn't been close to that level this season and, in fact, hasn't been close to that level in 5 of his 6 NBA seasons. Is he better than Ricky or JMac? Absolutely. But that neither here nor there. He's a max player who doesn't deliver all-star caliber play. And he's a particularly bad fit for an offensive predicated on speed and ball movement. But it's not DLO's fault that he's here or that the Wolves gave up both of their 2021 draft picks to get him.
I'm not going to get caught up in whether KAT's a #1 or #2 on a playoff team. The one full season he was paired with another all-star caliber player, Jimmy Butler, the Wolves made the playoffs. And if not for Butler missing the last 15 or so games that season, the Wolves would have likely finished in the top 4 or 5. Note that KAT was only 21 years old that season. I don't care whether KAT is #1 or #2; just give me another true all-star caliber player - preferably someone who is good defensively. And give me a defensive big as a rotation role player to help our interior defense. Rosas had the right idea from the outset, i.e., to build around KAT. Unfortunately, Rosas has been incredibly inept at implementing that idea. Rosas loves to talk about "execution." It's one of his favorite bureaucratic buzz words that he uses repeatedly. Well, as much as he likes the word, he appears to have no idea how to actually do it.
Finch may be a better head coach than Ryan, but it doesn't really matter. The roster is flawed and the team will continue to focus on style over substance with Finch replacing Ryan as a conduit for Gersson's Daryl Morey fantasy - without James Harden. Finch and Rosas will end up leaving together before the end of their respective contracts. That's inevitable at this point. The only question is whether the damage Rosas leaves behind will be irreparable and, thus, necessitate a complete rebuild without KAT.
Just to clarify my position since Q invoked my name (aren't those the debate rules...you get to reply if your name is invoked?), I think our brand of basketball is more entertaining when someone other than DLO is running the point, but I don't believe we are an overall better basketball team without him than with him...that would really be a sorry state of affairs if we were better off without our second highest paid player. Here's what I do believe about DLO and what I have said in the past.
1)I think we would be in better shape as a franchise if we had Wig and our 2021 first round pick instead of DLO, and I have never wavered from that position.
2) I have concerns about how consistently poor DLO's on/off stats are, and I find them meaningful.
3) Like Jamal Crawford, he has the ability to score, and his shooting will win you a few games every season.
4) I worry that his style of play doesn't fit with a strategy to make KAT the focal point of our offense, but admit that we don't have enough information to conclude either way.
But,
My comment is in this thread was much narrower than that...I merely said that over time a Rubio/JO backcourt is superior defensively to a DLO/Beasley backcourt. There is a lot of data that will back this up, and not much to support the other side of the argument.
I hope that clarifies what I think about DLO and his value to the Wolves.
I think most alarming has been how few times that the team has had more than 1 guy playing well. DLo, Ricky, Towns, Beasley and Ant are all really talented. Why can the team only seem to get 1 going each game or even each half? I think this is the biggest coaching deficiency the team has...or really poor luck. I'm also concerned that Beasley and DLO aren't very invested or interested in finding ways to make an impact when it's someone else's night. That's going to kill this team more often than not.
Camden wrote:We sure as shit wouldn't have gone 1-9 since Karl-Anthony Towns returned if D'Angelo Russell would have been healthy. And that's while acknowledging Ricky Rubio had a couple of really nice games over that stretch.
OK, may be 2-8 with DLO. Yay.
Now even McLaughlin is underachieving. DLO, Rubio, and McLaughlin have all regressed this season. Our point guard play sucks, plain and simple.
Considering a lot of those games were close losses in which the shot-making just wasn't there late for Minnesota, especially in the games that went into overtime, I'm thinking they go 4-6 or 5-5 over that span, which is a far cry from the 1-9 that they did go.
But my comment was targeted towards those that believe the team is worse with D-Lo than without. That's a folly.
As long as there are those who believe the the Wolves could have been closer to .500 with another coach other than Saunders... and close to .500 in this stretch with DLO other than Rubio...
... Rosas is smiling nervously and wiping his brow in relief. Having the league's worst record doesn't happen by accident or because of Russell missing a few games. The Wolves have the worst point differential. The 27th best offense... 23rd best defense.
They are a terrible team. Poorly constructed. With at least a 60% chance of more of the same next year.
But by all means... let's quibble about a few coaching decisions. Or, which overpriced PG is less disastrous of a pickup.
