Game Report - Wolves v. Spurs

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

He's a legit 6th man of the year candidate and frankly he's exactly what any coach wants off their bench in that role. A guy who can handle the ball, run the offense and score off the dribble. I think Lou Williams 8 million a year would be my cap and that's only on the table if he doesn't miss significant time this year. That's what I would expect a 6th man to get. Now if a team desperate for a PG like the Suns or Magic throw 10 at him I wouldn't be surprised. That would be a shot worth taking if I was a fan of those teams. 2/20 would limit your risk for a veteran starting PG while you develop a younger one. That's all with the asterisk that he doesn't get hurt again this year though.

[Lipoli390]

Two points. First, the appeal relates to a civil trial, which means there is absolutely no risk of Rose going to jail if he loses the appeal. It would simply mean he COULD end up paying money damages to his accuser. Second, it's highly unlikely Rose will lose this appeal. Appellate judges rarely overturn jury verdicts. And reading the comments of that one judge tells me the accuser's lawyers don't have any legitimate basis for overturning the jury's decision. That was an unusually definitive statement from a judge in oral argument.

Here's another thought about this. None of us can possibly know what did or didn't happen between Rose and the accuser. But its really unfair to Rose if we allow the accuser's allegations to taint our view of him. As we all know, we start with a presumption of innocence in this Country. That's not just a dinner-party phrase, it's a core principle that defines who we are as Americans. Moreover, beyond the presumption of innocence, Rose has actually been found innocent by a jury of his peers who heard all the evidence and arguments. Note that I used the phrase "found innocent" rather than "not guilty." That was deliberate. This was a civil trial, which means the standard of proof was a simple "more likely than not" standard. In others words, the jury found it more likely than not that Rose did not do what he was accused of doing.

By now you've probably figured out I'm a lawyer. So I'll add another point. The jury took 15 minutes to decide the case. Trial lawyers know that when a jury makes a decision that quickly, it usually means the case was really one-sided - i.e., not a close case.

So let's move on and enjoy the season. And let's celebrate the player and person we all see in Derrick Rose, free from the cloud of allegations that were rejected by a group of people (the jury) who heard all the evidence and found him innocent.

There's a risk of a criminal trial if he is found liable in a civil court. No decision has been made yet whether to proceed with criminal charges. The pressure would certainly be great if he is found liable in a civil court.

It took the jury 15 minutes to decide that Rose was more likely than not innocent. There is no way a prosecutor is going to bring criminal charges against Rose, knowing that he'd have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Even a finding of civil liability would not likely trigger a criminal prosecution. In any event, there is absolutely no way Rose will ever be found liable in a civil court. The Court of Appeals won't over turn the civil verdict. And if they did overturn it, a new jury would likely take about 15 minutes to reach the same conclusion as the last jury.

[Lipoli390]

Some context for the question of what you would pay Rose especially if you had this hypothetical guarantee he would stay healthy and productive. Any of these options sound like a bargain at this point. It makes me feel like we might avoid dumping way too much money into him because we can't.

https://twitter.com/danemoorenba/status/1068597491808067590?s=21

Minnesota has Derrick Rose's "Early Bird Rights."

Without cap space, these are the exception options to re-sign him:

Early Bird - up to $8.799M per, must be at least 2 yrs
Midlevel - up to $9.246M per
Bi-Annual - up to $3.619M per
Minimum - $2.561M per ($1.619M against cap)

This is helpful, Monster. Geek's question assumed Rose stays healthy. That's a big assumption. I'm going to reject that assumption and weigh his prior durability issues against the quality of his play, how much he means to this team and what appears to be his new-found durability. Weighing all the relevant factors, including his past durability issues, I'd offer him a 2-year deal up to the Early Bird amount of $8.799M per year. My hope is that we can re-sign him at the bi-annual amount of $3.6M per year on a two-year deal. He's still only 30 years old and if his injury issues are behind him, he should be playing at the high level for several more years.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Two points. First, the appeal relates to a civil trial, which means there is absolutely no risk of Rose going to jail if he loses the appeal. It would simply mean he COULD end up paying money damages to his accuser. Second, it's highly unlikely Rose will lose this appeal. Appellate judges rarely overturn jury verdicts. And reading the comments of that one judge tells me the accuser's lawyers don't have any legitimate basis for overturning the jury's decision. That was an unusually definitive statement from a judge in oral argument.

Here's another thought about this. None of us can possibly know what did or didn't happen between Rose and the accuser. But its really unfair to Rose if we allow the accuser's allegations to taint our view of him. As we all know, we start with a presumption of innocence in this Country. That's not just a dinner-party phrase, it's a core principle that defines who we are as Americans. Moreover, beyond the presumption of innocence, Rose has actually been found innocent by a jury of his peers who heard all the evidence and arguments. Note that I used the phrase "found innocent" rather than "not guilty." That was deliberate. This was a civil trial, which means the standard of proof was a simple "more likely than not" standard. In others words, the jury found it more likely than not that Rose did not do what he was accused of doing.

By now you've probably figured out I'm a lawyer. So I'll add another point. The jury took 15 minutes to decide the case. Trial lawyers know that when a jury makes a decision that quickly, it usually means the case was really one-sided - i.e., not a close case.

So let's move on and enjoy the season. And let's celebrate the player and person we all see in Derrick Rose, free from the cloud of allegations that were rejected by a group of people (the jury) who heard all the evidence and found him innocent.

There's a risk of a criminal trial if he is found liable in a civil court. No decision has been made yet whether to proceed with criminal charges. The pressure would certainly be great if he is found liable in a civil court.

It took the jury 15 minutes to decide that Rose was more likely than not innocent. There is no way a prosecutor is going to bring criminal charges against Rose, knowing that he'd have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Even a finding of civil liability would not likely trigger a criminal prosecution. In any event, there is absolutely no way Rose will ever be found liable in a civil court. The Court of Appeals won't over turn the civil verdict. And if they did overturn it, a new jury would likely take about 15 minutes to reach the same conclusion as the last jury.

You should send that to peterson. Hes having a hard time supporting rose on the air which also can create some ill will against rose from those who might not be as aware.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Two points. First, the appeal relates to a civil trial, which means there is absolutely no risk of Rose going to jail if he loses the appeal. It would simply mean he COULD end up paying money damages to his accuser. Second, it's highly unlikely Rose will lose this appeal. Appellate judges rarely overturn jury verdicts. And reading the comments of that one judge tells me the accuser's lawyers don't have any legitimate basis for overturning the jury's decision. That was an unusually definitive statement from a judge in oral argument.

Here's another thought about this. None of us can possibly know what did or didn't happen between Rose and the accuser. But its really unfair to Rose if we allow the accuser's allegations to taint our view of him. As we all know, we start with a presumption of innocence in this Country. That's not just a dinner-party phrase, it's a core principle that defines who we are as Americans. Moreover, beyond the presumption of innocence, Rose has actually been found innocent by a jury of his peers who heard all the evidence and arguments. Note that I used the phrase "found innocent" rather than "not guilty." That was deliberate. This was a civil trial, which means the standard of proof was a simple "more likely than not" standard. In others words, the jury found it more likely than not that Rose did not do what he was accused of doing.

By now you've probably figured out I'm a lawyer. So I'll add another point. The jury took 15 minutes to decide the case. Trial lawyers know that when a jury makes a decision that quickly, it usually means the case was really one-sided - i.e., not a close case.

So let's move on and enjoy the season. And let's celebrate the player and person we all see in Derrick Rose, free from the cloud of allegations that were rejected by a group of people (the jury) who heard all the evidence and found him innocent.

There's a risk of a criminal trial if he is found liable in a civil court. No decision has been made yet whether to proceed with criminal charges. The pressure would certainly be great if he is found liable in a civil court.

It took the jury 15 minutes to decide that Rose was more likely than not innocent. There is no way a prosecutor is going to bring criminal charges against Rose, knowing that he'd have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Even a finding of civil liability would not likely trigger a criminal prosecution. In any event, there is absolutely no way Rose will ever be found liable in a civil court. The Court of Appeals won't over turn the civil verdict. And if they did overturn it, a new jury would likely take about 15 minutes to reach the same conclusion as the last jury.

You should send that to peterson. Hes having a hard time supporting rose on the air which also can create some ill will against rose from those who might not be as aware.

I feel like Peterson has been a Rose backer on air. The only time he even hinted at the issue was during the 50 point game when he pointed out that he wasn't convicted of anything.

Regardless, the rape accusation is something that's not easy for me as a fan to dismiss. As for the jury's speed, it may show there obviously wasn't enough evidence to convict, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing happened. Rape is a crime that often doesn't have a lot of evidence. And the basic descriptions of Rose's behavior don't look good. You can do really bad things without breaking the law or without there being evidence of a law being broken.

I write this as a guy who was a huge Rose fan early in his career. I lived in Chicago when he was at Simeon and watching his high school "mixtapes" was really thrilling, and when he got drafted, that city was so much fun and those games were a blast to go to. The way that he played was unbelievable. I loved the sheer aggressiveness of his play. Just intense athleticism on a level we rarely see. I remember gushing on this board about how much I loved watching him play, and how his full-court drives and dunks were one of the major reasons I looked forward to the start of basketball every fall.

I can't separate the player from the guy, and what I've heard about the guy is disturbing even if there wasn't anything provable in court and he may not have done it. I don't dismiss him. I still cheer for him. I can't give up how much I loved watching him play, and how I want him to keep bouncing back after his injuries earlier in his career. I actually admire that more than I do his youthful athleticism. But I also can't dismiss this nagging feeling of disappointment and worry about what kind of a person I am cheering for, or at least what he's done in his private life. That's a complicated feeling to have, but given what we know, I can't help but feel really ambivalent about him.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Drew, I think any thoughtful fan that really invested in someone like you did with Rose would have similarly mixed feelings. There is the legal aspect of this that Lip has outlined, but then there is just common decency and behavioral norms, which he violated in a big way (in my opinion). I mean, the whole thing is just ugly regardless of the legalities.

That being said, I would encourage you to look at some of the good he has done for his community. Also, when did these things happen? Is it possible he has changed and matured since then?

People are messy. The same person is capable of doing tremendous good while also doing some pretty shitty things too.

[Monster]

Drew, I think any thoughtful fan that really invested in someone like you did with Rose would have similarly mixed feelings. There is the legal aspect of this that Lip has outlined, but then there is just common decency and behavioral norms, which he violated in a big way (in my opinion). I mean, the whole thing is just ugly regardless of the legalities.

That being said, I would encourage you to look at some of the good he has done for his community. Also, when did these things happen? Is it possible he has changed and matured since then?

People are messy. The same person is capable of doing tremendous good while also doing some pretty shitty things too.

Well said Q.

[Coolbreeze44]

It's kind of like why I couldn't embrace Butler. Liked the player, but just couldn't separate the player from the person. And in his case, the person adversely affected everybody else on the team. At least Rose doesn't take others down with him.

[Monster]

He's a legit 6th man of the year candidate and frankly he's exactly what any coach wants off their bench in that role. A guy who can handle the ball, run the offense and score off the dribble. I think Lou Williams 8 million a year would be my cap and that's only on the table if he doesn't miss significant time this year. That's what I would expect a 6th man to get. Now if a team desperate for a PG like the Suns or Magic throw 10 at him I wouldn't be surprised. That would be a shot worth taking if I was a fan of those teams. 2/20 would limit your risk for a veteran starting PG while you develop a younger one. That's all with the asterisk that he doesn't get hurt again this year though.

What you are describing is why I thought bringing back Rose was worth the risk. I was hoping to get a Rockets Eric Gordon type guy. Rose has been better than that so far this year. I think other teams if he stays mostly healthy might be willing to offer him more than you suggest. I'll be surprised if he just goes for the money. I'd guess he wants to win games.

[Monster]

It's kind of like why I couldn't embrace Butler. Liked the player, but just couldn't separate the player from the person. And in his case, the person adversely affected everybody else on the team. At least Rose doesn't take others down with him.

It's also possible Rose can reclaim his imagine as well. I have some friends that will never be ok with Michael Vick (pitting that lightly) for what he did but by all accounts the guy has turned into a pretty good human being someone that's likely positive to his society AND to the game he played. It's a pretty amazing turn around. It's ome of the things that plays out in sports sometimes we get to see what seems to be a real positive transformation. Of course on the other end of things sometimes we end up being blindsighted too like...Darren Sharper.