Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'd be one happy camper if we could somehow turn Butler's salary and risk into Kevin Knox. It wouldn't take a whole lot more for me to sign off on that deal. Knox is the real deal.

Cool what GMs do you think will look foolish for passing on Knox?

Monster, I'm not sure of all the GM's who will look foolish, but I think the Knicks come off looking very smart. I bet there were GM's thinking they were going to get him, or were angling to move up to get him.

I agree, Cool. And I liked the way you phrased it, not as GMs looking foolish, but rather the Knicks' GM looking really smart. It's the way I'd characterize the Lakers' Kuzma and Hart picks last summer. In my view, those picks don't make other GMs look foolish. Instead they illustrate the good scouting and judgment of the Lakers' organization. It's a subtle point, but an important one. If our standard for the Wolves front office is basic competence or to not be foolish, then I think they've met that standard. But if we hold them to a standard of excellence, which would seem appropriate if we have any championship aspirations, then I think it's clear Thibodeau's front office has fallen short. Thibodeau and Layden haven't looked foolish, but they haven't come off as particularly smart.

The funny thing about the Lakers is how impressive they have been with their non-lottery picks. Their top picks so far...haven't been as effective. I'm not saying they blew their picks but none of them have turned out to be anything of real substance...yet. There is plenty of time for those guys to develop but Randle is already gone and moving Russell looks pretty smart now even though he could still be a nice player if he can ever get healthy. His career so far gives me a bit of a Billups vibe (injuries and relatively inefficient play).

Good point, Monster, about the Lakers' lottery picks. But Ingram is already looking like the right pick and I'm still convinced Ball will turn out to be an elite player. Nevertheless, you point out some obvious mistakes so far. But I'll give the Lakers credit for moving on fairly quickly from Russell. Even the best organizations make mistakes. The key is making more really smart moves than dumb moves and moving fairly quickly and effectively to remedy your mistakes. All it takes are a few great draft picks for a team to become a contender (see Spurs and Warriors). A bunch of fairly decent picks will result in nothing more than a fairly decent team.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'd be one happy camper if we could somehow turn Butler's salary and risk into Kevin Knox. It wouldn't take a whole lot more for me to sign off on that deal. Knox is the real deal.

Cool what GMs do you think will look foolish for passing on Knox?

Monster, I'm not sure of all the GM's who will look foolish, but I think the Knicks come off looking very smart. I bet there were GM's thinking they were going to get him, or were angling to move up to get him.

I agree, Cool. And I liked the way you phrased it, not as GMs looking foolish, but rather the Knicks' GM looking really smart. It's the way I'd characterize the Lakers' Kuzma and Hart picks last summer. In my view, those picks don't make other GMs look foolish. Instead they illustrate the good scouting and judgment of the Lakers' organization. It's a subtle point, but an important one. If our standard for the Wolves front office is basic competence or to not be foolish, then I think they've met that standard. But if we hold them to a standard of excellence, which would seem appropriate if we have any championship aspirations, then I think it's clear Thibodeau's front office has fallen short. Thibodeau and Layden haven't looked foolish, but they haven't come off as particularly smart.

The funny thing about the Lakers is how impressive they have been with their non-lottery picks. Their top picks so far...haven't been as effective. I'm not saying they blew their picks but none of them have turned out to be anything of real substance...yet. There is plenty of time for those guys to develop but Randle is already gone and moving Russell looks pretty smart now even though he could still be a nice player if he can ever get healthy. His career so far gives me a bit of a Billups vibe (injuries and relatively inefficient play).

Good point, Monster, about the Lakers' lottery picks. But Ingram is already looking like the right pick and I'm still convinced Ball will turn out to be an elite player. Nevertheless, you point out some obvious mistakes so far. But I'll give the Lakers credit for moving on fairly quickly from Russell. Even the best organizations make mistakes. The key is making more really smart moves than dumb moves and moving fairly quickly and effectively to remedy your mistakes. All it takes are a few great draft picks for a team to become a contender (see Spurs and Warriors). A bunch of fairly decent picks will result in nothing more than a fairly decent team.

Ball is not going to be an elite player. He'll be a poor man's Rajon Rondo playing with LeBron.

From reddit about a podcast Joe Budden does

"Basically, Joe Budden (former rapper, hip hop podcaster) spoke about a party he attended earlier this offseason at Mark Wahlbergs house, who is a known good friend of Jimmy. He didn't want to disclose too many specifics of the conversation he had with Jimmy, but Joe mentioned that Jimmy had "a lot of interesting things to say about New York basketball". He did not mention teaming up with Kyrie or anything, but did mention that they hung out the day before (lol)."

I really do think they strongly want to play together and I want the Wolves to go after Irving if they can somehow after this season, but if they don't I see Butler and Kyrie teaming up in New York or Brooklyn.

A couple points here. 1st being the Knicks don't actually have 2 30 million cap spots available to just flat out sign Jimmy and Kyrie. They have to extend Porzingas before the deadline like we do Towns and then that takes them up to about a 90 million payroll which isn't even enough for 1 max spot even after renouncing everyone. Teams would need to help them dump all of Hardaway Jr, Noah, Lee and Lance Thomas. Those 4 make around 46 million combined. That would get them close to two max spots. Offloading 4 guys is gonna be a tall task. 1 or 2 you just add picks, but 4 is tough.

Then you have Boston. Kyrie wants to leave a legitimate contender in this scenario. Is Ainge gonna let him walk out the door for nothing? If Kyrie and Jimmy want to play together it would seem beneficial for them to go to either the Wolves or the Celtics as all the Knicks have to offer is a poo poo platter of Frank and garbage big contracts because they aren't trading Knox. So they could get Wiggins or they might want like a Teague/Tyus on a 10 million extension with an unprotected 1st package. The Wolves could take back Hayward. Or get a Smart and filler and some coveted Boston picks they always seem to have. I think any of those options is more desirable than Frank, Noah, Hardaway Jr and picks from the Knicks.

We get it. Jimmy and Kyrie want to play together and New York is a league favorite destination. There isn't an easy path for them to get both though because they just don't have valuable assets outside of Knox and Porzingas and they have 4 big contracts they need to offload. If they sign one, then Knox is gonna have to go for the other because neither Thibs nor Ainge is gonna give up an all-NBA guy for a poo poo platter.

khans2k5 wrote:A couple points here. 1st being the Knicks don't actually have 2 30 million cap spots available to just flat out sign Jimmy and Kyrie. They have to extend Porzingas before the deadline like we do Towns and then that takes them up to about a 90 million payroll which isn't even enough for 1 max spot even after renouncing everyone. Teams would need to help them dump all of Hardaway Jr, Noah, Lee and Lance Thomas. Those 4 make around 46 million combined. That would get them close to two max spots. Offloading 4 guys is gonna be a tall task. 1 or 2 you just add picks, but 4 is tough.

Then you have Boston. Kyrie wants to leave a legitimate contender in this scenario. Is Ainge gonna let him walk out the door for nothing? If Kyrie and Jimmy want to play together it would seem beneficial for them to go to either the Wolves or the Celtics as all the Knicks have to offer is a poo poo platter of Frank and garbage big contracts because they aren't trading Knox. So they could get Wiggins or they might want like a Teague/Tyus on a 10 million extension with an unprotected 1st package. The Wolves could take back Hayward. Or get a Smart and filler and some coveted Boston picks they always seem to have. I think any of those options is more desirable than Frank, Noah, Hardaway Jr and picks from the Knicks.

We get it. Jimmy and Kyrie want to play together and New York is a league favorite destination. There isn't an easy path for them to get both though because they just don't have valuable assets outside of Knox and Porzingas and they have 4 big contracts they need to offload. If they sign one, then Knox is gonna have to go for the other because neither Thibs nor Ainge is gonna give up an all-NBA guy for a poo poo platter.

I think Ainge would rather let Kyrie walk than to acquire Wiggins' contract with no place to play him, but I don't foresee a scenario where Ainge trades Kyrie to NY unless he was getting Porzingis back. The Celtics are at a point where they're gonna ride it out with Kyrie knowing Smart and Rozier are there if anything goes wrong.

As for the Knicks' ability to create another max slot, it's not as difficult to consider.

Lance's $7.5 mil next season is nonguaranteed so there he goes.
Noah makes $19 mil but they can stretch his deal over 3 years to save cap.
Kornet, Baker and Mudiay have qualifying offers than can be rescinded.
Kanter is a free agent.

So really their only big money deals would be Porzingis' cap hold, THJ and Courtney Lee. All they have to do is find a team who would take Courtney Lee next season for an expiring and that paves the way for 2 max slots.

It's doable.

WildWolf2813 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:A couple points here. 1st being the Knicks don't actually have 2 30 million cap spots available to just flat out sign Jimmy and Kyrie. They have to extend Porzingas before the deadline like we do Towns and then that takes them up to about a 90 million payroll which isn't even enough for 1 max spot even after renouncing everyone. Teams would need to help them dump all of Hardaway Jr, Noah, Lee and Lance Thomas. Those 4 make around 46 million combined. That would get them close to two max spots. Offloading 4 guys is gonna be a tall task. 1 or 2 you just add picks, but 4 is tough.

Then you have Boston. Kyrie wants to leave a legitimate contender in this scenario. Is Ainge gonna let him walk out the door for nothing? If Kyrie and Jimmy want to play together it would seem beneficial for them to go to either the Wolves or the Celtics as all the Knicks have to offer is a poo poo platter of Frank and garbage big contracts because they aren't trading Knox. So they could get Wiggins or they might want like a Teague/Tyus on a 10 million extension with an unprotected 1st package. The Wolves could take back Hayward. Or get a Smart and filler and some coveted Boston picks they always seem to have. I think any of those options is more desirable than Frank, Noah, Hardaway Jr and picks from the Knicks.

We get it. Jimmy and Kyrie want to play together and New York is a league favorite destination. There isn't an easy path for them to get both though because they just don't have valuable assets outside of Knox and Porzingas and they have 4 big contracts they need to offload. If they sign one, then Knox is gonna have to go for the other because neither Thibs nor Ainge is gonna give up an all-NBA guy for a poo poo platter.

I think Ainge would rather let Kyrie walk than to acquire Wiggins' contract with no place to play him, but I don't foresee a scenario where Ainge trades Kyrie to NY unless he was getting Porzingis back. The Celtics are at a point where they're gonna ride it out with Kyrie knowing Smart and Rozier are there if anything goes wrong.

As for the Knicks' ability to create another max slot, it's not as difficult to consider.

Lance's $7.5 mil next season is nonguaranteed so there he goes.
Noah makes $19 mil but they can stretch his deal over 3 years to save cap.
Kornet, Baker and Mudiay have qualifying offers than can be rescinded.
Kanter is a free agent.

So really their only big money deals would be Porzingis' cap hold, THJ and Courtney Lee. All they have to do is find a team who would take Courtney Lee next season for an expiring and that paves the way for 2 max slots.

It's doable.

You don't think they'd extend Porzingas? That'd be like us not extending Towns so in case Jimmy leaves we'd have cap options. While that's a nice concept, those are guys you lock up as soon as possible and figure out the rest later.

"
Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler could be among the star-studded NBA free agent class of 2019, and a Bulls Insider says a "very accomplished" player is plotting to join them wherever they end up.

On the Bulls Talk Podcast, Mark Schanowski discussed 2019 before Vincent Goodwill interjected.

It was then that Goodwill jumped in...

"There's a third guy that I can't mention, but yeah," Goodwill said about another 2019 free agent joining Irving and Butler. "I can't tell you (who) but I can tell you it's a very accomplished NBA player. Very accomplished."

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/nba-insider-very-accomplished-third-player-plotting-to-join-kyrie-irving--jimmy-butler-in-2019/286433956

I really hope thibs' attachment to Jimmy isn't blinding him.

crazy-canuck wrote:"
Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler could be among the star-studded NBA free agent class of 2019, and a Bulls Insider says a "very accomplished" player is plotting to join them wherever they end up.

On the Bulls Talk Podcast, Mark Schanowski discussed 2019 before Vincent Goodwill interjected.

It was then that Goodwill jumped in...

"There's a third guy that I can't mention, but yeah," Goodwill said about another 2019 free agent joining Irving and Butler. "I can't tell you (who) but I can tell you it's a very accomplished NBA player. Very accomplished."

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/nba-insider-very-accomplished-third-player-plotting-to-join-kyrie-irving--jimmy-butler-in-2019/286433956

I really hope thibs' attachment to Jimmy isn't blinding him.

Good luck finding a team that has the cap space, matching contracts, and/or trade assets to acquire both Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler as well as this mystery player, if there even is a third name. The one name that I'd imagine might be linked to those two is DeAndre Jordan, but I mean, how "accomplished" is he? Is he a guy you'd say "very accomplished" twice about? I don't know about that. Is Klay Thompson going to leave Golden State? I can't see it, honestly. He has a good thing going there with the whole "best two-way player" label some ridiculously place on him and the argument that he's a superstar in a role player's capacity. Carmelo Anthony is pretty accomplished individually, but nobody really cares about him anymore.

I think this is more talk then it will be action -- very much like how Paul George and Kawhi Leonard would join LeBron James in Los Angeles this summer. The big domino fell... and the other two fell through. We're a very long ways away from any more super team construction.

Camden0916 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:"
Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler could be among the star-studded NBA free agent class of 2019, and a Bulls Insider says a "very accomplished" player is plotting to join them wherever they end up.

On the Bulls Talk Podcast, Mark Schanowski discussed 2019 before Vincent Goodwill interjected.

It was then that Goodwill jumped in...

"There's a third guy that I can't mention, but yeah," Goodwill said about another 2019 free agent joining Irving and Butler. "I can't tell you (who) but I can tell you it's a very accomplished NBA player. Very accomplished."

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/nba-insider-very-accomplished-third-player-plotting-to-join-kyrie-irving--jimmy-butler-in-2019/286433956

I really hope thibs' attachment to Jimmy isn't blinding him.

Good luck finding a team that has the cap space, matching contracts, and/or trade assets to acquire both Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler as well as this mystery player, if there even is a third name. The one name that I'd imagine might be linked to those two is DeAndre Jordan, but I mean, how "accomplished" is he? Is he a guy you'd say "very accomplished" twice about? I don't know about that. Is Klay Thompson going to leave Golden State? I can't see it, honestly. He has a good thing going there with the whole "best two-way player" label some ridiculously place on him and the argument that he's a superstar in a role player's capacity. Carmelo Anthony is pretty accomplished individually, but nobody really cares about him anymore.

I think this is more talk then it will be action -- very much like how Paul George and Kawhi Leonard would join LeBron James in Los Angeles this summer. The big domino fell... and the other two fell through. We're a very long ways away from any more super team construction.

One differenceis that butler and irving are actually close friends on and off the court.

Nets and the knicks can make room for 2 max, but not a third. So i think that third accomplished by is someone who would take less and are close to both irving and butler. Imo, wade or melo. Dj is the obvious choice, but no way he takes a massive pay cut.

crazy-canuck wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:"
Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler could be among the star-studded NBA free agent class of 2019, and a Bulls Insider says a "very accomplished" player is plotting to join them wherever they end up.

On the Bulls Talk Podcast, Mark Schanowski discussed 2019 before Vincent Goodwill interjected.

It was then that Goodwill jumped in...

"There's a third guy that I can't mention, but yeah," Goodwill said about another 2019 free agent joining Irving and Butler. "I can't tell you (who) but I can tell you it's a very accomplished NBA player. Very accomplished."

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/nba-insider-very-accomplished-third-player-plotting-to-join-kyrie-irving--jimmy-butler-in-2019/286433956

I really hope thibs' attachment to Jimmy isn't blinding him.

Good luck finding a team that has the cap space, matching contracts, and/or trade assets to acquire both Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler as well as this mystery player, if there even is a third name. The one name that I'd imagine might be linked to those two is DeAndre Jordan, but I mean, how "accomplished" is he? Is he a guy you'd say "very accomplished" twice about? I don't know about that. Is Klay Thompson going to leave Golden State? I can't see it, honestly. He has a good thing going there with the whole "best two-way player" label some ridiculously place on him and the argument that he's a superstar in a role player's capacity. Carmelo Anthony is pretty accomplished individually, but nobody really cares about him anymore.

I think this is more talk then it will be action -- very much like how Paul George and Kawhi Leonard would join LeBron James in Los Angeles this summer. The big domino fell... and the other two fell through. We're a very long ways away from any more super team construction.

One differenceis that butler and irving are actually close friends on and off the court.

Nets and the knicks can make room for 2 max, but not a third. So i think that third accomplished by is someone who would take less and are close to both irving and butler. Imo, wade or melo. Dj is the obvious choice, but no way he takes a massive pay cut.

I'm aware of the friendship shared by Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler. But if there isn't a place that can realistically find the room to acquire both of them then it's a talking point only. I honestly don't see the Knicks being able to clear the cap necessary to sign both of them and re-sign Porzingis to the max. That's a lot of cap maneuvering that they just don't have the assets and savvy to pull off. And Brooklyn -- while I love what they're doing as well as the management they have in place -- just doesn't have enough of a supporting cast to be a plug and play environment for two stars who want to contend.

I think out of all of these scenarios, the one that's more likely than any of them is the Wolves trade Butler to Boston -- after firing Thibodeau, which is looking more and more likely. I'd go for a deal structured around Butler, Taj Gibson, and a top-20 protected first-round pick to the Celtics for Gordon Hayward and Jaylen Brown. Hayward would have to be thrown in for the simple reason that I can't imagine a scenario where Boston re-signs Irving and Butler to max contracts while keeping both Al Horford and Hayward on max salaries with Marcus Smart making $13M annually. The kicker is that they have Jayson Tatum ready and more than deserving of starting and Horford is the glue that holds everything together, which makes Hayward the odd man out to me.