T Wolves vs Suns - Battle for the Bottom Seed.

[thedoper]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

We can yell that stats don't matter and only our own (possibly) biased eye tests count...
... but it's an exercise in futility.

It's hard to find a single statistic other than ppg, offensively or defensively, that shows Andrew Wiggins is an above average basketball player.

Some people could even argue that he performs at a below average rate a lot of the time. I'm well beyond the point of making excuses for him and trying to find "everybody gets a trophy" moments to cheer about. He's an abject failure from MY eye test and from a quick glance at the stat sheet.

[Monster]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.

I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.

I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.

Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?

It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.

His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.

And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.

Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:

Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie

Guys with - negative BPM:

Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.

I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.

Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?

It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.

His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.

And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.

Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:

Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie

Guys with - negative BPM:

Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose

Those categories largely agree with my eye test, although I would say DRPM exactly matches my eye test. DRPM moves Tyus to positive and Okogie to negative (I see the potential that you all see in Josh, but he is way too raw to be a positive factor at this juncture), and has Gorgui and Tolliver roughly breakeven. And Andrew is a negative by almost any defensive measure you want to cite.

I hear Monster and Doper defending Wig's defense last night and I have to admit I saw a few good plays. But I saw just as many terrible ones (like the last defensive play of the game where Taj picked Wig up after Booker blew by him like he was standing still). Ultimately defense is about three factors...athleticism, technique and effort...and Wig only excels in one of the three. Until he learns how to consistently bring effort, he will continue to look bad in all defensive measures.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Ryan has to play Wiggins because he's the "least bad" option on the wing. Okogie has regressed, Rose is limited by health and defensive matchups, and RoCo is hurt. Once RoCo is back, I can absolutely see scenarios where Wig should be benched in favor of Rose at the 2. But he and Okogie are the only two guys that have a prayer at hanging with opposing wings right now on defense (Tolliver struggles guarding 3s and Rose is a horrible defender at any position). And on offense, Wiggins is less bad than Okogie, I don't think anyone should argue that point.

All we can hope is that his occasional big nights give enough of a flash to some GM out there that they would be willing to trade for him.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.

I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.

Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?

It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.

His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.

And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.

Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:

Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie

Guys with - negative BPM:

Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose

Those categories largely agree with my eye test, although I would say DRPM exactly matches my eye test. DRPM moves Tyus to positive and Okogie to negative (I see the potential that you all see in Josh, but he is way too raw to be a positive factor at this juncture), and has Gorgui and Tolliver roughly breakeven. And Andrew is a negative by almost any defensive measure you want to cite.

I hear Monster and Doper defending Wig's defense last night and I have to admit I saw a few good plays. But I saw just as many terrible ones (like the last defensive play of the game where Taj picked Wig up after Booker blew by him like he was standing still). Ultimately defense is about three factors...athleticism, technique and effort...and Wig only excels in one of the three. Until he learns how to consistently bring effort, he will continue to look bad in all defensive measures.

Yeah. Jones is the one guy who looks good via the eye test. But is smaller and not a great athlete (relatively speaking) so I don't know how much that plays into it. He seems really smart defensively though.

The larger point is that there's literally nothing of substance/tangible to latch on to for proving Wiggins is a plus player.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Ryan has to play Wiggins because he's the "least bad" option on the wing. Okogie has regressed, Rose is limited by health and defensive matchups, and RoCo is hurt. Once RoCo is back, I can absolutely see scenarios where Wig should be benched in favor of Rose at the 2. But he and Okogie are the only two guys that have a prayer at hanging with opposing wings right now on defense (Tolliver struggles guarding 3s and Rose is a horrible defender at any position). And on offense, Wiggins is less bad than Okogie, I don't think anyone should argue that point.

All we can hope is that his occasional big nights give enough of a flash to some GM out there that they would be willing to trade for him.

Yeah, I tend to agree, although I don't think Ryan has to play him 40 minutes even with RoCo out. Certainly Ryan will be able to limit Andrew to 20 or less once the team is healthy when he is having an off night like last night. If Andrew is lethargic on offense and erratic on defense like last night, I could see Ryan doing something like this:


KAT 35, G 13
Taj/Saric: Whatever the situation dictates
Covington 35 Wig 13
Wig 7 Rose 30 Okogie 11
Tyus/Teague Whatever the situation dictates

On the rare nights where Wig is bringing it, we might see the wing minutes more like this:

Covington 35 Wig 13
Wig 22, Rose 26

The point is: this roster is deep enough to give Ryan plenty of options when guys show they just aren't interested in being there like Wig did last night...we just need to get RoCo back. But I agree, until then Ryan probably has to give Wig 30+ minutes every night.

[Monster]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.

I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.

Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?

It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.

His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.

And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.

Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:

Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie

Guys with - negative BPM:

Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose

Those categories largely agree with my eye test, although I would say DRPM exactly matches my eye test. DRPM moves Tyus to positive and Okogie to negative (I see the potential that you all see in Josh, but he is way too raw to be a positive factor at this juncture), and has Gorgui and Tolliver roughly breakeven. And Andrew is a negative by almost any defensive measure you want to cite.

I hear Monster and Doper defending Wig's defense last night and I have to admit I saw a few good plays. But I saw just as many terrible ones (like the last defensive play of the game where Taj picked Wig up after Booker blew by him like he was standing still). Ultimately defense is about three factors...athleticism, technique and effort...and Wig only excels in one of the three. Until he learns how to consistently bring effort, he will continue to look bad in all defensive measures.

Yeah. Jones is the one guy who looks good via the eye test. But is smaller and not a great athlete (relatively speaking) so I don't know how much that plays into it. He seems really smart defensively though.

The larger point is that there's literally nothing of substance/tangible to latch on to for proving Wiggins is a plus player.

On that last play Wiggins got burned but it looked like he actually knocked the ball out before Taj got it. Taj deserves more credit on making the play but Wiggins got back into the play and had an effect.

I only mentioned the damn 6 rebounds because the idea was he did nothing or there like every night he misses buckets. No I'm not saying give him a cookie for 6 rebounds but people want him to do stuff and he does and people just rip him for not doing anything even if there are some things he actually does.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.

I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.

The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.

I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.

Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?

It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.

His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.

And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.

Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:

Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie

Guys with - negative BPM:

Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose

Those categories largely agree with my eye test, although I would say DRPM exactly matches my eye test. DRPM moves Tyus to positive and Okogie to negative (I see the potential that you all see in Josh, but he is way too raw to be a positive factor at this juncture), and has Gorgui and Tolliver roughly breakeven. And Andrew is a negative by almost any defensive measure you want to cite.

I hear Monster and Doper defending Wig's defense last night and I have to admit I saw a few good plays. But I saw just as many terrible ones (like the last defensive play of the game where Taj picked Wig up after Booker blew by him like he was standing still). Ultimately defense is about three factors...athleticism, technique and effort...and Wig only excels in one of the three. Until he learns how to consistently bring effort, he will continue to look bad in all defensive measures.

Yeah. Jones is the one guy who looks good via the eye test. But is smaller and not a great athlete (relatively speaking) so I don't know how much that plays into it. He seems really smart defensively though.

The larger point is that there's literally nothing of substance/tangible to latch on to for proving Wiggins is a plus player.

On that last play Wiggins got burned but it looked like he actually knocked the ball out before Taj got it. Taj deserves more credit on making the play but Wiggins got back into the play and had an effect.

To be honest... I'm definitely not talking about one play.

Or a game. Or a month. And at this point... even a season.



[Edit: The rebounds stuff... we're literally searching for reasons to praise him that he simply doesn't deserve at this point if we're going out of our way to point out that he was average on the boards last night. As fans... we deserve more than the mental gymnastics we have to do to search for good things about Andrew Wiggins at this point.]