monsterpile wrote:Apparently Gerald Henderson is healthy after his hip surgery he had last year. I've always liked him for some reason. Yeah he seems like and injury risk with hip surgery but he was playing with it and missed 10 or less games the last 3 years he played. He wasn't a great player before the surgury but he can handle the ball attack and wasn't the worst 3 point shooter. Maybe he will be better playing without the pain. It's not like there are other amazing options. He claimed he had teams that wanted to sign him last summer even with the bad hip.
Not interested. Might as well sign Corey Brewer and call it a day. My top pick at this point remains Danuel House. My second choice would be Pat Connaughton.
Sorry Lip both of those guys have already been signed although House might not stick in GS.
Why Brewer over Henderson? Henderson has a better resume as a 3 point shooter than Brewer. I hope you have read about the nature of the hip situation in the article. It seems fairly encouraging he can actually be healthy. I remember last summer you wanted Afflalo and I wanted Henderson (before Henderson elected to have surgery). I remember ultimately looking at advanced stats neither looked like a positive although Afflalo was worse...and he backed that up with another bad performance last season. =)
We are digging through guys here at this point. I thought Henderson was a worthwhile option to at least bring up. Honestly like you I'd rather go with a younger player (which is I think we may have both ended up last year also). The funny thing is that it seems like based on Glen's comments Thibs and Layden seem to be leaning the same way. They added a couple younger players at this juncture in FA last year also in MGH and eventually Bazz so its not like they are always looking for old the vets. My top youngish guy now is Brandon Paul.
I've been out of town and falling behind on the free agent news. My hesitancy on Henderson is two-fold. First, I just don't have confidence in anyone coming back from hip surgery. Hip surgery and back surgery scare me off. Second, like you, I continue to prefer a younger player with some upside given the caliber of experienced vets still available. I'd take Brewer over Henderson because of Henderson's hip surgery and because I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire. In any event, I don't think there are any free agents who want to come play for Thibodeau unless absolutely no other team in interested in them. Brewer's the exception because he loves Minneapolis and his girl friend's family lives here.
How about Jimmer Fredette? I'd take flyer on him. He's a better 3-point shooter than any of the free agents still available and his defense can't be any worse than Crawford's. It's the sort of move that would make sense to fill our 13th or 14th roster spot given how seriously lacking we are in 3-point firepower and knowing we've lost Crawford and already added a defensive-minded wing in Okogie. But it's also the sort of move the totally inside-the-box team of Thibodeau and Layden would never make.
I'm glad we could get you up to speed on these bigtime NBA Free Agents!!!! Lol
Thanks for the reply on Henderson.
"I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire."
You can say the same stuff about Henderson. The things i like about him is he plays with a certain physical force about him. He is a type of guy that can play physical. To me his hip surgury seems like something more likely to come back from than the soft tissue stuff with IT or Flynn etc. Anywho I rest my case on Henderson. I just wanted to explain my case but let's move on.
I think one of the legit issues (Thibs could also be a factor) is that the Wolves may not look like a great opportunity for other players because of other players on the roster. Last season it took till right before training camp before Aaron Brooks signed. Why? I think he knew and possibly was even told by Thibs and Layden Tyus was a guy they valued a lot. Players talk and play against guys and I think guys like Brooks knew Tyus could play and Brooks wanted something better than to be a 3rd PG. This season the Wolves just drafted Okogie and KBD and they showed some good things in Vegas. Sure Thibs has a reputation of not playing young players but as a younger player that's not all that experienced are you betting on getting minutes over those draft picks? Probably not. Last summer MGH was reported to turn down better guaranteed money (it was also reported several teams would have done a waiver claim if they had the cap space) because he wanted to come here and saw the opportunity to get a roster spot for the whole season. Right now that's the play at some point for some guys. They can see a path to a roster spot for the entire season. That will gave value as teams become pretty full. I wouldn't be shocked if Thibs and Layden have been up front with some of these guys about what is the expected role here.
Let's see how this plays out. There have been guys I like that have signed elsewhere but it's not like we missed out on some really proven cheap (espcially for the vet min) young player that's also a dynamite 3 point threat. There will be similar in talent guys we can and likely will get.
Except for the rare player like Brewer, who has particular connections to Minnesota, no free agent will sign with the Wolves unless they have absolutely no other other alternative to play in the NBA or get overpaid. I think there was some interest last summer among free agents after we signed Butler, but even then we didn't see free agents lining up to come here for market or below-market value.
We've heard the same thing from both Thorpe and Dudley -- a couple of guys who are clearly attuned to the sentiments of NBA players. As Thorpe relayed to us, playing for Thibodeau isn't considered fun (style of play and Thibodeau demeanor). As both Thorpe and Dudley mentioned, players don't expect to get much playing time under Thibs as part of the bench. If anything, this past season cemented Thibodeau's reputation as someone you wouldn't want to play for. Our starters played more than the starters on any other NBA team, obviously at the expense of PT for the bench, and the Wolves played a drab, antiquated iso style of basketball Thibs is known for. Thibodeau really like MGH, yet MGH got almost no playing time. Amile Jefferson and Anthony Brown, our two-way contract guys, got no playing time. Jefferson signed a two-way elsewhere, Crawford couldn't wait to leave, and MGH won't be back. It's widely known that Tyus was unhappy with his playing time as backup PG. And even our starting PG publicly criticized Thibodeau for failing to give more PT to Tyus. Now we have Butler publicly complaining about playing with the Wolves most talented and productive player, Towns, sending signals that he's not inclined to re-sign with the Wolves next summer when he hits the FA market.
Why on earth would anyone sign with the Wolves as FA this summer??!! I'm just waiting for the Thibs era in Minnesota to end. It can't end soon enough.
Remind me of the days MN has ever had the luxury of getting free agents without paying a premium. Oh wait they've never existed. It's not a Thibs problem because it's been a problem long before Thibs.
Lets say everything Lip says is true (some of it either is or might be). What is the speculative list of FAs that the Wolves reasonably missed out on this offseason because they are such a poor destination?
In mostly jest I could argue that Thibs scaring away Crawford is actually a good thing! Even his biggest fan Wolfson has admitted recently on Twitter Crawford opting out was good for the Wolves. Imagine what kinds of players we would be looking at if he didn't opt out. Not much money to spend on anyone and stay away from the Lux tax. Meanwhile Crawford is still unsigned... =)
monsterpile wrote:Apparently Gerald Henderson is healthy after his hip surgery he had last year. I've always liked him for some reason. Yeah he seems like and injury risk with hip surgery but he was playing with it and missed 10 or less games the last 3 years he played. He wasn't a great player before the surgury but he can handle the ball attack and wasn't the worst 3 point shooter. Maybe he will be better playing without the pain. It's not like there are other amazing options. He claimed he had teams that wanted to sign him last summer even with the bad hip.
Not interested. Might as well sign Corey Brewer and call it a day. My top pick at this point remains Danuel House. My second choice would be Pat Connaughton.
Sorry Lip both of those guys have already been signed although House might not stick in GS.
Why Brewer over Henderson? Henderson has a better resume as a 3 point shooter than Brewer. I hope you have read about the nature of the hip situation in the article. It seems fairly encouraging he can actually be healthy. I remember last summer you wanted Afflalo and I wanted Henderson (before Henderson elected to have surgery). I remember ultimately looking at advanced stats neither looked like a positive although Afflalo was worse...and he backed that up with another bad performance last season. =)
We are digging through guys here at this point. I thought Henderson was a worthwhile option to at least bring up. Honestly like you I'd rather go with a younger player (which is I think we may have both ended up last year also). The funny thing is that it seems like based on Glen's comments Thibs and Layden seem to be leaning the same way. They added a couple younger players at this juncture in FA last year also in MGH and eventually Bazz so its not like they are always looking for old the vets. My top youngish guy now is Brandon Paul.
I've been out of town and falling behind on the free agent news. My hesitancy on Henderson is two-fold. First, I just don't have confidence in anyone coming back from hip surgery. Hip surgery and back surgery scare me off. Second, like you, I continue to prefer a younger player with some upside given the caliber of experienced vets still available. I'd take Brewer over Henderson because of Henderson's hip surgery and because I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire. In any event, I don't think there are any free agents who want to come play for Thibodeau unless absolutely no other team in interested in them. Brewer's the exception because he loves Minneapolis and his girl friend's family lives here.
How about Jimmer Fredette? I'd take flyer on him. He's a better 3-point shooter than any of the free agents still available and his defense can't be any worse than Crawford's. It's the sort of move that would make sense to fill our 13th or 14th roster spot given how seriously lacking we are in 3-point firepower and knowing we've lost Crawford and already added a defensive-minded wing in Okogie. But it's also the sort of move the totally inside-the-box team of Thibodeau and Layden would never make.
I'm glad we could get you up to speed on these bigtime NBA Free Agents!!!! Lol
Thanks for the reply on Henderson.
"I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire."
You can say the same stuff about Henderson. The things i like about him is he plays with a certain physical force about him. He is a type of guy that can play physical. To me his hip surgury seems like something more likely to come back from than the soft tissue stuff with IT or Flynn etc. Anywho I rest my case on Henderson. I just wanted to explain my case but let's move on.
I think one of the legit issues (Thibs could also be a factor) is that the Wolves may not look like a great opportunity for other players because of other players on the roster. Last season it took till right before training camp before Aaron Brooks signed. Why? I think he knew and possibly was even told by Thibs and Layden Tyus was a guy they valued a lot. Players talk and play against guys and I think guys like Brooks knew Tyus could play and Brooks wanted something better than to be a 3rd PG. This season the Wolves just drafted Okogie and KBD and they showed some good things in Vegas. Sure Thibs has a reputation of not playing young players but as a younger player that's not all that experienced are you betting on getting minutes over those draft picks? Probably not. Last summer MGH was reported to turn down better guaranteed money (it was also reported several teams would have done a waiver claim if they had the cap space) because he wanted to come here and saw the opportunity to get a roster spot for the whole season. Right now that's the play at some point for some guys. They can see a path to a roster spot for the entire season. That will gave value as teams become pretty full. I wouldn't be shocked if Thibs and Layden have been up front with some of these guys about what is the expected role here.
Let's see how this plays out. There have been guys I like that have signed elsewhere but it's not like we missed out on some really proven cheap (espcially for the vet min) young player that's also a dynamite 3 point threat. There will be similar in talent guys we can and likely will get.
Except for the rare player like Brewer, who has particular connections to Minnesota, no free agent will sign with the Wolves unless they have absolutely no other other alternative to play in the NBA or get overpaid. I think there was some interest last summer among free agents after we signed Butler, but even then we didn't see free agents lining up to come here for market or below-market value.
We've heard the same thing from both Thorpe and Dudley -- a couple of guys who are clearly attuned to the sentiments of NBA players. As Thorpe relayed to us, playing for Thibodeau isn't considered fun (style of play and Thibodeau demeanor). As both Thorpe and Dudley mentioned, players don't expect to get much playing time under Thibs as part of the bench. If anything, this past season cemented Thibodeau's reputation as someone you wouldn't want to play for. Our starters played more than the starters on any other NBA team, obviously at the expense of PT for the bench, and the Wolves played a drab, antiquated iso style of basketball Thibs is known for. Thibodeau really like MGH, yet MGH got almost no playing time. Amile Jefferson and Anthony Brown, our two-way contract guys, got no playing time. Jefferson signed a two-way elsewhere, Crawford couldn't wait to leave, and MGH won't be back. It's widely known that Tyus was unhappy with his playing time as backup PG. And even our starting PG publicly criticized Thibodeau for failing to give more PT to Tyus. Now we have Butler publicly complaining about playing with the Wolves most talented and productive player, Towns, sending signals that he's not inclined to re-sign with the Wolves next summer when he hits the FA market.
Why on earth would anyone sign with the Wolves as FA this summer??!! I'm just waiting for the Thibs era in Minnesota to end. It can't end soon enough.
Remind me of the days MN has ever had the luxury of getting free agents without paying a premium. Oh wait they've never existed. It's not a Thibs problem because it's been a problem long before Thibs.
Denial is a beautiful thing. But when you hear people like Thorpe and Dudley say that free agents don't want to play for Thibodeau, you need to embrace denial to believe otherwise. Just to be clear, I'm not in denial over the failure of prior regimes to create a culture that attracted free agents. A big part of that has been the fact that this hasn't been a winning franchise for a long time. Then there's the fact that Taylor keeps making bad hiring decisions like David Kahn and now Tom Thibodeau. But when Thorpe says that Minneapolis has a positive reputation as a place to play around the League, I'll take him at his word. He's well connected and has no reason to make that up or lie about it. So the potential is there. Thibodeau isn't a new problem, he's just a continuation of an old problem with an organization that makes bad front office and head coach hiring decisions except, I'd say, the hiring of Rick Adelman as head coach.
monsterpile wrote:Apparently Gerald Henderson is healthy after his hip surgery he had last year. I've always liked him for some reason. Yeah he seems like and injury risk with hip surgery but he was playing with it and missed 10 or less games the last 3 years he played. He wasn't a great player before the surgury but he can handle the ball attack and wasn't the worst 3 point shooter. Maybe he will be better playing without the pain. It's not like there are other amazing options. He claimed he had teams that wanted to sign him last summer even with the bad hip.
Not interested. Might as well sign Corey Brewer and call it a day. My top pick at this point remains Danuel House. My second choice would be Pat Connaughton.
Sorry Lip both of those guys have already been signed although House might not stick in GS.
Why Brewer over Henderson? Henderson has a better resume as a 3 point shooter than Brewer. I hope you have read about the nature of the hip situation in the article. It seems fairly encouraging he can actually be healthy. I remember last summer you wanted Afflalo and I wanted Henderson (before Henderson elected to have surgery). I remember ultimately looking at advanced stats neither looked like a positive although Afflalo was worse...and he backed that up with another bad performance last season. =)
We are digging through guys here at this point. I thought Henderson was a worthwhile option to at least bring up. Honestly like you I'd rather go with a younger player (which is I think we may have both ended up last year also). The funny thing is that it seems like based on Glen's comments Thibs and Layden seem to be leaning the same way. They added a couple younger players at this juncture in FA last year also in MGH and eventually Bazz so its not like they are always looking for old the vets. My top youngish guy now is Brandon Paul.
I've been out of town and falling behind on the free agent news. My hesitancy on Henderson is two-fold. First, I just don't have confidence in anyone coming back from hip surgery. Hip surgery and back surgery scare me off. Second, like you, I continue to prefer a younger player with some upside given the caliber of experienced vets still available. I'd take Brewer over Henderson because of Henderson's hip surgery and because I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire. In any event, I don't think there are any free agents who want to come play for Thibodeau unless absolutely no other team in interested in them. Brewer's the exception because he loves Minneapolis and his girl friend's family lives here.
How about Jimmer Fredette? I'd take flyer on him. He's a better 3-point shooter than any of the free agents still available and his defense can't be any worse than Crawford's. It's the sort of move that would make sense to fill our 13th or 14th roster spot given how seriously lacking we are in 3-point firepower and knowing we've lost Crawford and already added a defensive-minded wing in Okogie. But it's also the sort of move the totally inside-the-box team of Thibodeau and Layden would never make.
I'm glad we could get you up to speed on these bigtime NBA Free Agents!!!! Lol
Thanks for the reply on Henderson.
"I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire."
You can say the same stuff about Henderson. The things i like about him is he plays with a certain physical force about him. He is a type of guy that can play physical. To me his hip surgury seems like something more likely to come back from than the soft tissue stuff with IT or Flynn etc. Anywho I rest my case on Henderson. I just wanted to explain my case but let's move on.
I think one of the legit issues (Thibs could also be a factor) is that the Wolves may not look like a great opportunity for other players because of other players on the roster. Last season it took till right before training camp before Aaron Brooks signed. Why? I think he knew and possibly was even told by Thibs and Layden Tyus was a guy they valued a lot. Players talk and play against guys and I think guys like Brooks knew Tyus could play and Brooks wanted something better than to be a 3rd PG. This season the Wolves just drafted Okogie and KBD and they showed some good things in Vegas. Sure Thibs has a reputation of not playing young players but as a younger player that's not all that experienced are you betting on getting minutes over those draft picks? Probably not. Last summer MGH was reported to turn down better guaranteed money (it was also reported several teams would have done a waiver claim if they had the cap space) because he wanted to come here and saw the opportunity to get a roster spot for the whole season. Right now that's the play at some point for some guys. They can see a path to a roster spot for the entire season. That will gave value as teams become pretty full. I wouldn't be shocked if Thibs and Layden have been up front with some of these guys about what is the expected role here.
Let's see how this plays out. There have been guys I like that have signed elsewhere but it's not like we missed out on some really proven cheap (espcially for the vet min) young player that's also a dynamite 3 point threat. There will be similar in talent guys we can and likely will get.
Except for the rare player like Brewer, who has particular connections to Minnesota, no free agent will sign with the Wolves unless they have absolutely no other other alternative to play in the NBA or get overpaid. I think there was some interest last summer among free agents after we signed Butler, but even then we didn't see free agents lining up to come here for market or below-market value.
We've heard the same thing from both Thorpe and Dudley -- a couple of guys who are clearly attuned to the sentiments of NBA players. As Thorpe relayed to us, playing for Thibodeau isn't considered fun (style of play and Thibodeau demeanor). As both Thorpe and Dudley mentioned, players don't expect to get much playing time under Thibs as part of the bench. If anything, this past season cemented Thibodeau's reputation as someone you wouldn't want to play for. Our starters played more than the starters on any other NBA team, obviously at the expense of PT for the bench, and the Wolves played a drab, antiquated iso style of basketball Thibs is known for. Thibodeau really like MGH, yet MGH got almost no playing time. Amile Jefferson and Anthony Brown, our two-way contract guys, got no playing time. Jefferson signed a two-way elsewhere, Crawford couldn't wait to leave, and MGH won't be back. It's widely known that Tyus was unhappy with his playing time as backup PG. And even our starting PG publicly criticized Thibodeau for failing to give more PT to Tyus. Now we have Butler publicly complaining about playing with the Wolves most talented and productive player, Towns, sending signals that he's not inclined to re-sign with the Wolves next summer when he hits the FA market.
Why on earth would anyone sign with the Wolves as FA this summer??!! I'm just waiting for the Thibs era in Minnesota to end. It can't end soon enough.
Remind me of the days MN has ever had the luxury of getting free agents without paying a premium. Oh wait they've never existed. It's not a Thibs problem because it's been a problem long before Thibs.
Lets say everything Lip says is true (some of it either is or might be). What is the speculative list of FAs that the Wolves reasonably missed out on this offseason because they are such a poor destination?
In mostly jest I could argue that Thibs scaring away Crawford is actually a good thing! Even his biggest fan Wolfson has admitted recently on Twitter Crawford opting out was good for the Wolves. Imagine what kinds of players we would be looking at if he didn't opt out. Not much money to spend on anyone and stay away from the Lux tax. Meanwhile Crawford is still unsigned... =)
Lol. Monster, I liked your reference to Thibs scaring Crawford away as a good thing. I won't argue with you on that point. :) As for which free agents we missed out on, I'll put together a list in a future post. I think we missed out on several last February/March in Ilyasova and Belinelli.
I actually don't think we missed on too many. Missed implies that we had a chance. I just don't think anyone wants to play for thibs unless they are either bulls who want to regain some former glory or we overpay someone. And we simply haven't had the caproom since blowing everything on dieng/wiggs extension and overpaying for teague and taj.
Brandon Paul was waived by the Spurs so he is available.
With CJ Williams being added as a 2-way player I would be interested in Tyler Cavanaugh as a young big that can shoot but he probably doesn't fit the profile of younger player that can defend. Assuming the other roster spot goes to a younger wing maybe the other spot could go to a young somewhat promising big preferably one that's can space the floor. Christian Wood is another name that's been brought up as an option.
crazy-canuck wrote:I actually don't think we missed on too many. Missed implies that we had a chance. I just don't think anyone wants to play for thibs unless they are either bulls who want to regain some former glory or we overpay someone. And we simply haven't had the caproom since blowing everything on dieng/wiggs extension and overpaying for teague and taj.
monsterpile wrote:Apparently Gerald Henderson is healthy after his hip surgery he had last year. I've always liked him for some reason. Yeah he seems like and injury risk with hip surgery but he was playing with it and missed 10 or less games the last 3 years he played. He wasn't a great player before the surgury but he can handle the ball attack and wasn't the worst 3 point shooter. Maybe he will be better playing without the pain. It's not like there are other amazing options. He claimed he had teams that wanted to sign him last summer even with the bad hip.
Not interested. Might as well sign Corey Brewer and call it a day. My top pick at this point remains Danuel House. My second choice would be Pat Connaughton.
Sorry Lip both of those guys have already been signed although House might not stick in GS.
Why Brewer over Henderson? Henderson has a better resume as a 3 point shooter than Brewer. I hope you have read about the nature of the hip situation in the article. It seems fairly encouraging he can actually be healthy. I remember last summer you wanted Afflalo and I wanted Henderson (before Henderson elected to have surgery). I remember ultimately looking at advanced stats neither looked like a positive although Afflalo was worse...and he backed that up with another bad performance last season. =)
We are digging through guys here at this point. I thought Henderson was a worthwhile option to at least bring up. Honestly like you I'd rather go with a younger player (which is I think we may have both ended up last year also). The funny thing is that it seems like based on Glen's comments Thibs and Layden seem to be leaning the same way. They added a couple younger players at this juncture in FA last year also in MGH and eventually Bazz so its not like they are always looking for old the vets. My top youngish guy now is Brandon Paul.
I've been out of town and falling behind on the free agent news. My hesitancy on Henderson is two-fold. First, I just don't have confidence in anyone coming back from hip surgery. Hip surgery and back surgery scare me off. Second, like you, I continue to prefer a younger player with some upside given the caliber of experienced vets still available. I'd take Brewer over Henderson because of Henderson's hip surgery and because I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire. In any event, I don't think there are any free agents who want to come play for Thibodeau unless absolutely no other team in interested in them. Brewer's the exception because he loves Minneapolis and his girl friend's family lives here.
How about Jimmer Fredette? I'd take flyer on him. He's a better 3-point shooter than any of the free agents still available and his defense can't be any worse than Crawford's. It's the sort of move that would make sense to fill our 13th or 14th roster spot given how seriously lacking we are in 3-point firepower and knowing we've lost Crawford and already added a defensive-minded wing in Okogie. But it's also the sort of move the totally inside-the-box team of Thibodeau and Layden would never make.
I'm glad we could get you up to speed on these bigtime NBA Free Agents!!!! Lol
Thanks for the reply on Henderson.
"I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire."
You can say the same stuff about Henderson. The things i like about him is he plays with a certain physical force about him. He is a type of guy that can play physical. To me his hip surgury seems like something more likely to come back from than the soft tissue stuff with IT or Flynn etc. Anywho I rest my case on Henderson. I just wanted to explain my case but let's move on.
I think one of the legit issues (Thibs could also be a factor) is that the Wolves may not look like a great opportunity for other players because of other players on the roster. Last season it took till right before training camp before Aaron Brooks signed. Why? I think he knew and possibly was even told by Thibs and Layden Tyus was a guy they valued a lot. Players talk and play against guys and I think guys like Brooks knew Tyus could play and Brooks wanted something better than to be a 3rd PG. This season the Wolves just drafted Okogie and KBD and they showed some good things in Vegas. Sure Thibs has a reputation of not playing young players but as a younger player that's not all that experienced are you betting on getting minutes over those draft picks? Probably not. Last summer MGH was reported to turn down better guaranteed money (it was also reported several teams would have done a waiver claim if they had the cap space) because he wanted to come here and saw the opportunity to get a roster spot for the whole season. Right now that's the play at some point for some guys. They can see a path to a roster spot for the entire season. That will gave value as teams become pretty full. I wouldn't be shocked if Thibs and Layden have been up front with some of these guys about what is the expected role here.
Let's see how this plays out. There have been guys I like that have signed elsewhere but it's not like we missed out on some really proven cheap (espcially for the vet min) young player that's also a dynamite 3 point threat. There will be similar in talent guys we can and likely will get.
Except for the rare player like Brewer, who has particular connections to Minnesota, no free agent will sign with the Wolves unless they have absolutely no other other alternative to play in the NBA or get overpaid. I think there was some interest last summer among free agents after we signed Butler, but even then we didn't see free agents lining up to come here for market or below-market value.
We've heard the same thing from both Thorpe and Dudley -- a couple of guys who are clearly attuned to the sentiments of NBA players. As Thorpe relayed to us, playing for Thibodeau isn't considered fun (style of play and Thibodeau demeanor). As both Thorpe and Dudley mentioned, players don't expect to get much playing time under Thibs as part of the bench. If anything, this past season cemented Thibodeau's reputation as someone you wouldn't want to play for. Our starters played more than the starters on any other NBA team, obviously at the expense of PT for the bench, and the Wolves played a drab, antiquated iso style of basketball Thibs is known for. Thibodeau really like MGH, yet MGH got almost no playing time. Amile Jefferson and Anthony Brown, our two-way contract guys, got no playing time. Jefferson signed a two-way elsewhere, Crawford couldn't wait to leave, and MGH won't be back. It's widely known that Tyus was unhappy with his playing time as backup PG. And even our starting PG publicly criticized Thibodeau for failing to give more PT to Tyus. Now we have Butler publicly complaining about playing with the Wolves most talented and productive player, Towns, sending signals that he's not inclined to re-sign with the Wolves next summer when he hits the FA market.
Why on earth would anyone sign with the Wolves as FA this summer??!! I'm just waiting for the Thibs era in Minnesota to end. It can't end soon enough.
Remind me of the days MN has ever had the luxury of getting free agents without paying a premium. Oh wait they've never existed. It's not a Thibs problem because it's been a problem long before Thibs.
Denial is a beautiful thing. But when you hear people like Thorpe and Dudley say that free agents don't want to play for Thibodeau, you need to embrace denial to believe otherwise. Just to be clear, I'm not in denial over the failure of prior regimes to create a culture that attracted free agents. A big part of that has been the fact that this hasn't been a winning franchise for a long time. Then there's the fact that Taylor keeps making bad hiring decisions like David Kahn and now Tom Thibodeau. But when Thorpe says that Minneapolis has a positive reputation as a place to play around the League, I'll take him at his word. He's well connected and has no reason to make that up or lie about it. So the potential is there. Thibodeau isn't a new problem, he's just a continuation of an old problem with an organization that makes bad front office and head coach hiring decisions except, I'd say, the hiring of Rick Adelman as head coach.
You're the one in denial if you think just a different coach automatically equals guys wanting to come to MN for non-premium deals. It's never happened. It's not hard to buy that guys don't want to play for Thibs, but the fact is they weren't coming here anyway without an overpay and we didn't have money to overpay guys this offseason. Thorpe can say all he wants about MN as a basketball city. It doesn't bring players here on good deals so it's moot point. You seem to be spinning this narrative that Thibs is the sole problem we aren't getting guys you want and it's just not true. It's just your own narrative. He's part of a problem and the only way to overcome that problem is money we don't have, therefore putting all the blame on him is an irrational attack at a PBO you just don't like.
monsterpile wrote:Apparently Gerald Henderson is healthy after his hip surgery he had last year. I've always liked him for some reason. Yeah he seems like and injury risk with hip surgery but he was playing with it and missed 10 or less games the last 3 years he played. He wasn't a great player before the surgury but he can handle the ball attack and wasn't the worst 3 point shooter. Maybe he will be better playing without the pain. It's not like there are other amazing options. He claimed he had teams that wanted to sign him last summer even with the bad hip.
Not interested. Might as well sign Corey Brewer and call it a day. My top pick at this point remains Danuel House. My second choice would be Pat Connaughton.
Sorry Lip both of those guys have already been signed although House might not stick in GS.
Why Brewer over Henderson? Henderson has a better resume as a 3 point shooter than Brewer. I hope you have read about the nature of the hip situation in the article. It seems fairly encouraging he can actually be healthy. I remember last summer you wanted Afflalo and I wanted Henderson (before Henderson elected to have surgery). I remember ultimately looking at advanced stats neither looked like a positive although Afflalo was worse...and he backed that up with another bad performance last season. =)
We are digging through guys here at this point. I thought Henderson was a worthwhile option to at least bring up. Honestly like you I'd rather go with a younger player (which is I think we may have both ended up last year also). The funny thing is that it seems like based on Glen's comments Thibs and Layden seem to be leaning the same way. They added a couple younger players at this juncture in FA last year also in MGH and eventually Bazz so its not like they are always looking for old the vets. My top youngish guy now is Brandon Paul.
I've been out of town and falling behind on the free agent news. My hesitancy on Henderson is two-fold. First, I just don't have confidence in anyone coming back from hip surgery. Hip surgery and back surgery scare me off. Second, like you, I continue to prefer a younger player with some upside given the caliber of experienced vets still available. I'd take Brewer over Henderson because of Henderson's hip surgery and because I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire. In any event, I don't think there are any free agents who want to come play for Thibodeau unless absolutely no other team in interested in them. Brewer's the exception because he loves Minneapolis and his girl friend's family lives here.
How about Jimmer Fredette? I'd take flyer on him. He's a better 3-point shooter than any of the free agents still available and his defense can't be any worse than Crawford's. It's the sort of move that would make sense to fill our 13th or 14th roster spot given how seriously lacking we are in 3-point firepower and knowing we've lost Crawford and already added a defensive-minded wing in Okogie. But it's also the sort of move the totally inside-the-box team of Thibodeau and Layden would never make.
I'm glad we could get you up to speed on these bigtime NBA Free Agents!!!! Lol
Thanks for the reply on Henderson.
"I like Brewer as a good influence with his high energy and competitive fire."
You can say the same stuff about Henderson. The things i like about him is he plays with a certain physical force about him. He is a type of guy that can play physical. To me his hip surgury seems like something more likely to come back from than the soft tissue stuff with IT or Flynn etc. Anywho I rest my case on Henderson. I just wanted to explain my case but let's move on.
I think one of the legit issues (Thibs could also be a factor) is that the Wolves may not look like a great opportunity for other players because of other players on the roster. Last season it took till right before training camp before Aaron Brooks signed. Why? I think he knew and possibly was even told by Thibs and Layden Tyus was a guy they valued a lot. Players talk and play against guys and I think guys like Brooks knew Tyus could play and Brooks wanted something better than to be a 3rd PG. This season the Wolves just drafted Okogie and KBD and they showed some good things in Vegas. Sure Thibs has a reputation of not playing young players but as a younger player that's not all that experienced are you betting on getting minutes over those draft picks? Probably not. Last summer MGH was reported to turn down better guaranteed money (it was also reported several teams would have done a waiver claim if they had the cap space) because he wanted to come here and saw the opportunity to get a roster spot for the whole season. Right now that's the play at some point for some guys. They can see a path to a roster spot for the entire season. That will gave value as teams become pretty full. I wouldn't be shocked if Thibs and Layden have been up front with some of these guys about what is the expected role here.
Let's see how this plays out. There have been guys I like that have signed elsewhere but it's not like we missed out on some really proven cheap (espcially for the vet min) young player that's also a dynamite 3 point threat. There will be similar in talent guys we can and likely will get.
Except for the rare player like Brewer, who has particular connections to Minnesota, no free agent will sign with the Wolves unless they have absolutely no other other alternative to play in the NBA or get overpaid. I think there was some interest last summer among free agents after we signed Butler, but even then we didn't see free agents lining up to come here for market or below-market value.
We've heard the same thing from both Thorpe and Dudley -- a couple of guys who are clearly attuned to the sentiments of NBA players. As Thorpe relayed to us, playing for Thibodeau isn't considered fun (style of play and Thibodeau demeanor). As both Thorpe and Dudley mentioned, players don't expect to get much playing time under Thibs as part of the bench. If anything, this past season cemented Thibodeau's reputation as someone you wouldn't want to play for. Our starters played more than the starters on any other NBA team, obviously at the expense of PT for the bench, and the Wolves played a drab, antiquated iso style of basketball Thibs is known for. Thibodeau really like MGH, yet MGH got almost no playing time. Amile Jefferson and Anthony Brown, our two-way contract guys, got no playing time. Jefferson signed a two-way elsewhere, Crawford couldn't wait to leave, and MGH won't be back. It's widely known that Tyus was unhappy with his playing time as backup PG. And even our starting PG publicly criticized Thibodeau for failing to give more PT to Tyus. Now we have Butler publicly complaining about playing with the Wolves most talented and productive player, Towns, sending signals that he's not inclined to re-sign with the Wolves next summer when he hits the FA market.
Why on earth would anyone sign with the Wolves as FA this summer??!! I'm just waiting for the Thibs era in Minnesota to end. It can't end soon enough.
Remind me of the days MN has ever had the luxury of getting free agents without paying a premium. Oh wait they've never existed. It's not a Thibs problem because it's been a problem long before Thibs.
Denial is a beautiful thing. But when you hear people like Thorpe and Dudley say that free agents don't want to play for Thibodeau, you need to embrace denial to believe otherwise. Just to be clear, I'm not in denial over the failure of prior regimes to create a culture that attracted free agents. A big part of that has been the fact that this hasn't been a winning franchise for a long time. Then there's the fact that Taylor keeps making bad hiring decisions like David Kahn and now Tom Thibodeau. But when Thorpe says that Minneapolis has a positive reputation as a place to play around the League, I'll take him at his word. He's well connected and has no reason to make that up or lie about it. So the potential is there. Thibodeau isn't a new problem, he's just a continuation of an old problem with an organization that makes bad front office and head coach hiring decisions except, I'd say, the hiring of Rick Adelman as head coach.
You're the one in denial if you think just a different coach automatically equals guys wanting to come to MN for non-premium deals. It's never happened. It's not hard to buy that guys don't want to play for Thibs, but the fact is they weren't coming here anyway without an overpay and we didn't have money to overpay guys this offseason. Thorpe can say all he wants about MN as a basketball city. It doesn't bring players here on good deals so it's moot point. You seem to be spinning this narrative that Thibs is the sole problem we aren't getting guys you want and it's just not true. It's just your own narrative. He's part of a problem and the only way to overcome that problem is money we don't have, therefore putting all the blame on him is an irrational attack at a PBO you just don't like.
Well said Kahns. According to many on this board, if a player chooses to take a contract with a team other than the Wolves, Thibs "missed out" on that guy for various reasons. Forget the fact that said players probably have MANY teams vying for their services, and they are making decisions based on a multitude of factors. Must have been Thibs tough coaching style that made every player over the past 2 seasons pick somewhere else. Except our two most consistent performers on our first playoff team in many years....they actually chose to come here BECAUSE Thibs was here. But that doesn't count....
I don't know if it's denial or loyalty/optimism that causes some posters here to choose to ignore comments that well-connected guys like Thorpe and Dudley make about players' reluctance to play for Thibs, but I fear Glen Taylor has a similar attitude. Glen is basically a positive-attitude guy and he has a lot of dollars invested in Thibs, so I get why he might want to ignore negative comments about Thibs...it's frankly easier and cheaper for him to just let Thibs stay through his contractual period. But it's hurting this team and wasting the window we have to be a true challenger, and leading to us getting guys like CJ Williams in free agency rather than someone who is a true NBA player.
Thorpe's comments about Minneapolis being an attractive destination for an NBA player mirrors what anyone in the search business will say...Minneapolis is one of the most difficult markets to get somebody to move from. The Wolves' difficulty in bringing in top-notch talent pre-Thibs was not because the coach or the city was a deterrent...it was mostly because free agents didn't see enough talent on the roster, and most NBA players want a chance to contend. Now the city is still attractive and the roster is loaded with talent, but unfortunately reports are that the coach keeps many players away. We can choose to believe these sources or dismiss them. My choice is to believe them. I wish that was Glen's choice too.
longstrangetrip wrote:I don't know if it's denial or loyalty/optimism that causes some posters here to choose to ignore comments that well-connected guys like Thorpe and Dudley make about players' reluctance to play for Thibs, but I fear Glen Taylor has a similar attitude. Glen is basically a positive-attitude guy and he has a lot of dollars invested in Thibs, so I get why he might want to ignore negative comments about Thibs...it's frankly easier and cheaper for him to just let Thibs stay through his contractual period. But it's hurting this team and wasting the window we have to be a true challenger, and leading to us getting guys like CJ Williams in free agency rather than someone who is a true NBA player.
Thorpe's comments about Minneapolis being an attractive destination for an NBA player mirrors what anyone in the search business will say...Minneapolis is one of the most difficult markets to get somebody to move from. The Wolves' difficulty in bringing in top-notch talent pre-Thibs was not because the coach or the city was a deterrent...it was mostly because free agents didn't see enough talent on the roster, and most NBA players want a chance to contend. Now the city is still attractive and the roster is loaded with talent, but unfortunately reports are that the coach keeps many players away. We can choose to believe these sources or dismiss them. My choice is to believe them. I wish that was Glen's choice too.
We had a top 5 player in the league in KG and we couldn't get guys to come here on a discount. Your talent argument is just BS. A western conference finalist couldn't add these quality pieces you suggest are available to MN. I'm sorry, but Thorpe is just talking out of his ass when he says MN isn't a problem. NBA players don't like winter. It's a major deterrent. It always will be. We had the talent and a legitimate number 1 guy to get us to a title and yet nobody wanted to come. We had to trade for guys like Sprewell and Cassell.
We aren't ignoring their comments. We just aren't dumb enough to believe Thibs is THE reason guys aren't coming here. They aren't coming here because it's still MN and we can't offer the premium anymore that we've always had to pay to get guys here. Thibs being here just adds to that premium cost, but we didn't have the money even if Pop was our coach to get all these guys that are being suggested as misses due to Thibs.
