Zach and Andrew

[thedoper]

I still find it odd that Wiggins gets labeled a one way player with a lack of evidence for hustle and Zach is a horrible defender who is often disengaged or clueless on that side of the floor and skates for the most part here. Zach is easily the worst defender on the floor most nights. Like Wiggins he has great talent, but talk about a lack of hustle. It's painful to watch Zach defend.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I still find it odd that Wiggins gets labeled a one way player with a lack of evidence for hustle and Zach is a horrible defender who is often disengaged or clueless on that side of the floor and skates for the most part here. Zach is easily the worst defender on the floor most nights. Like Wiggins he has great talent, but talk about a lack of hustle. It's painful to watch Zach defend.

I disagree about LaVine showing a lack of hustle, and I think that 17 games in he's been a better defender than Wiggins has, but that's relatively subjective and I can't make you see otherwise. The unfortunate problem for us is that right now they are BOTH poor defenders. That much we should agree on. They have the potential to be the complete opposite, though. Hopefully we start seeing some legitimate growth on that end of the floor.

[thedoper]

I still find it odd that Wiggins gets labeled a one way player with a lack of evidence for hustle and Zach is a horrible defender who is often disengaged or clueless on that side of the floor and skates for the most part here. Zach is easily the worst defender on the floor most nights. Like Wiggins he has great talent, but talk about a lack of hustle. It's painful to watch Zach defend.

I disagree about LaVine showing a lack of hustle, and I think that 17 games in he's been a better defender than Wiggins has, but that's relatively subjective and I can't make you see otherwise. The unfortunate problem for us is that right now they are BOTH poor defenders. That much we should agree on. They have the potential to be the complete opposite, though. Hopefully we start seeing some legitimate growth on that end of the floor.

I think coupling Lavine and Wiggins at the same level of poor defenders is crazy. Lavine has no clue and no interest in defending. Wiggins at least has a fundamental understanding how to defend. I can agree that this conversation seems subjective, but I really can't understand how. Any argument that Lavine has contributed anything but dogshit on the defensive end fails what I am seeing out there. Long season ahead though, maybe he'll figure it out and just become a poor defender.

[Monster]

I still find it odd that Wiggins gets labeled a one way player with a lack of evidence for hustle and Zach is a horrible defender who is often disengaged or clueless on that side of the floor and skates for the most part here. Zach is easily the worst defender on the floor most nights. Like Wiggins he has great talent, but talk about a lack of hustle. It's painful to watch Zach defend.

I disagree about LaVine showing a lack of hustle, and I think that 17 games in he's been a better defender than Wiggins has, but that's relatively subjective and I can't make you see otherwise. The unfortunate problem for us is that right now they are BOTH poor defenders. That much we should agree on. They have the potential to be the complete opposite, though. Hopefully we start seeing some legitimate growth on that end of the floor.

I think coupling Lavine and Wiggins at the same level of poor defenders is crazy. Lavine has no clue and no interest in defending. Wiggins at least has a fundamental understanding how to defend. I can agree that this conversation seems subjective, but I really can't understand how. Any argument that Lavine has contributed anything but dogshit on the defensive end fails what I am seeing out there. Long season ahead though, maybe he'll figure it out and just become a poor defender.

I'm seeing plenty of effort from Zach on that end. In general inthink Zach puts forth effort in general. We don't see everything the same way though. I'm not arguing he is a good defender although is anyone on the entire roster?

[thedoper]

I still find it odd that Wiggins gets labeled a one way player with a lack of evidence for hustle and Zach is a horrible defender who is often disengaged or clueless on that side of the floor and skates for the most part here. Zach is easily the worst defender on the floor most nights. Like Wiggins he has great talent, but talk about a lack of hustle. It's painful to watch Zach defend.

I disagree about LaVine showing a lack of hustle, and I think that 17 games in he's been a better defender than Wiggins has, but that's relatively subjective and I can't make you see otherwise. The unfortunate problem for us is that right now they are BOTH poor defenders. That much we should agree on. They have the potential to be the complete opposite, though. Hopefully we start seeing some legitimate growth on that end of the floor.

I think coupling Lavine and Wiggins at the same level of poor defenders is crazy. Lavine has no clue and no interest in defending. Wiggins at least has a fundamental understanding how to defend. I can agree that this conversation seems subjective, but I really can't understand how. Any argument that Lavine has contributed anything but dogshit on the defensive end fails what I am seeing out there. Long season ahead though, maybe he'll figure it out and just become a poor defender.

I'm seeing plenty of effort from Zach on that end. In general inthink Zach puts forth effort in general. We don't see everything the same way though. I'm not arguing he is a good defender although is anyone on the entire roster?

I thought Van Gundy pointed it out great in the New Orleans telecast when he pointed out Zach specifically on various replays.. He's never set, especially in transition. It basically seems like he's never played defense. He may run around a lot with vigor, but that doesn't constitute hustle for me on D. He is uniquely unaware, and his positioning is off from what I see.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think Zach's defensive IQ is worse than Wiggins, but I do think he's putting forth the effort. One thing about Zach is that he can be easily fooled by change of direction moves, where he'll over-react in one direction and then be out of position. But his lateral foot speed is the best on the team. That's why coaches have lauded his potential on defense. Unfortunately, his IQ and discipline haven't caught up to his physical skills yet.

But the bigger point is we are arguing in degrees of bad here instead of degrees of good. I'd love for us to one day argue about who is the better defender versus who is the worse defender. They both stink.

[Monster]

I still find it odd that Wiggins gets labeled a one way player with a lack of evidence for hustle and Zach is a horrible defender who is often disengaged or clueless on that side of the floor and skates for the most part here. Zach is easily the worst defender on the floor most nights. Like Wiggins he has great talent, but talk about a lack of hustle. It's painful to watch Zach defend.

I disagree about LaVine showing a lack of hustle, and I think that 17 games in he's been a better defender than Wiggins has, but that's relatively subjective and I can't make you see otherwise. The unfortunate problem for us is that right now they are BOTH poor defenders. That much we should agree on. They have the potential to be the complete opposite, though. Hopefully we start seeing some legitimate growth on that end of the floor.

I think coupling Lavine and Wiggins at the same level of poor defenders is crazy. Lavine has no clue and no interest in defending. Wiggins at least has a fundamental understanding how to defend. I can agree that this conversation seems subjective, but I really can't understand how. Any argument that Lavine has contributed anything but dogshit on the defensive end fails what I am seeing out there. Long season ahead though, maybe he'll figure it out and just become a poor defender.

I'm seeing plenty of effort from Zach on that end. In general inthink Zach puts forth effort in general. We don't see everything the same way though. I'm not arguing he is a good defender although is anyone on the entire roster?

I thought Van Gundy pointed it out great in the New Orleans telecast when he pointed out Zach specifically on various replays.. He's never set, especially in transition. It basically seems like he's never played defense. He may run around a lot with vigor, but that doesn't constitute hustle for me on D. He is uniquely unaware, and his positioning is off from what I see.

I know the transition play you are talking about. It was bad. Zach also has had plenty of times where he gets back and defends well in transition. That's the type of stuff Thibs is talking about when he says you have to be consistent and have winning plays etc.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I think Zach's defensive IQ is worse than Wiggins, but I do think he's putting forth the effort. One thing about Zach is that he can be easily fooled by change of direction moves, where he'll over-react in one direction and then be out of position. But his lateral foot speed is the best on the team. That's why coaches have lauded his potential on defense. Unfortunately, his IQ and discipline haven't caught up to his physical skills yet.

But the bigger point is we are arguing in degrees of bad here instead of degrees of good. I'd love for us to one day argue about who is the better defender versus who is the worse defender. They both stink.

Yeah, I agree with all that. The frustrating part is both players came out of their one year in college with solid defensive reputations. While both are prolific offensive players for guys as young as they are, I don't think we have gotten anything close to what I was expecting from them on defense.

[AbeVigodaLive]

So I saw something about that infamous ESPN adjusted plus/minus stat that I hate...

Wiggins is #322 in the league... and dead last among SFs with that stat. Still question its validity, but I'd prefer a loftier ranking nonetheless.


Edit: The report seems to be wrong. He's ranked #66 among SFs... so there are 14 below him.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think Zach's defensive IQ is worse than Wiggins, but I do think he's putting forth the effort. One thing about Zach is that he can be easily fooled by change of direction moves, where he'll over-react in one direction and then be out of position. But his lateral foot speed is the best on the team. That's why coaches have lauded his potential on defense. Unfortunately, his IQ and discipline haven't caught up to his physical skills yet.

But the bigger point is we are arguing in degrees of bad here instead of degrees of good. I'd love for us to one day argue about who is the better defender versus who is the worse defender. They both stink.

Yeah, I agree with all that. The frustrating part is both players came out of their one year in college with solid defensive reputations. While both are prolific offensive players for guys as young as they are, I don't think we have gotten anything close to what I was expecting from them on defense.

Dieng was also billed as a defensive savant coming out of Louisville, but then he showed vastly better offensive chops than expected and was terrible defensively his first couple of seasons. Weird. That being said, he has definitely gotten better the last couple of seasons, but he's nowhere close to the Gobert/Whiteside/Jordan type of presence.