Minnesota Sports Forum

60WinTim wrote:Lip - I think that 24 mil of cap room is a little high. That's the number I came up with, and then noticed that Kevin Martin's stretch deal counts for 1.3 mil this year. So the cap room is a bit under 23 mil...

One other thing for khansie. Since we are sufficiently under the cap such that our salary plus cap holds and exceptions do not reach the minimum salary cap, we lose ALL our exceptions. So we do not have the MLE to use. What we do get is the Room MLE, which is worth about 3 mil.

After the Room MLE is used up, all we can give out are Vet Minimum deals...

(this comes directly from the cbafaq.com, questions 25 and 26)

We are not sufficiently under the cap until we renounce everyone and that'd be pretty dumb to do without a commitment from someone. We are currently at the cap and have both exceptions because all 20 million of this "cap space" is tied up in cap holds for Bazz, Rush, Patton, Payne, Casspi, etc.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:If we can land a big in free agency I think that puts G in play for a trade. 14 million is a lot to pay a backup especially one who was sitting on the bench to close games because Belly was a better fit on both ends of the court. Maybe ATL or TOR would be willing to sign and trade for Dieng so we could keep our exceptions to bring in a couple depth guys. We have lots of options so we'll see what we end up with.

I suspect Thibs will explore every possibility to improve the team. But it's highly unlikely he moves Gorgui. Remember that Thibs started the season praising Gorgui as the guy who does the things that don't show up in the box score and he didn't hesitate to give him the contact some are complaining about. Then he told folks internally in the organization that he considered Gorgui the most improved player on the team. So he starts out loving Gorgui and then later notes that Gorgui improved more than anyone else on the roster. That's not someone likely to be dealt. Truth is, Gorgui is more than a backup if KAT becomes a complete player. I can see Ricky being dealt, but even that seems unlikely to me as well.

Thibs praised Zach and Dunn a lot. Thibs will make the deal at the end of the day if he thinks it will make us better. All this praise means nothing when it comes to who he will keep or trade anymore. That ended with the Butler trade.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:If we can land a big in free agency I think that puts G in play for a trade. 14 million is a lot to pay a backup especially one who was sitting on the bench to close games because Belly was a better fit on both ends of the court. Maybe ATL or TOR would be willing to sign and trade for Dieng so we could keep our exceptions to bring in a couple depth guys. We have lots of options so we'll see what we end up with.

I suspect Thibs will explore every possibility to improve the team. But it's highly unlikely he moves Gorgui. Remember that Thibs started the season praising Gorgui as the guy who does the things that don't show up in the box score and he didn't hesitate to give him the contact some are complaining about. Then he told folks internally in the organization that he considered Gorgui the most improved player on the team. So he starts out loving Gorgui and then later notes that Gorgui improved more than anyone else on the roster. That's not someone likely to be dealt. Truth is, Gorgui is more than a backup if KAT becomes a complete player. I can see Ricky being dealt, but even that seems unlikely to me as well.

Thibs praised Zach and Dunn a lot. Thibs will make the deal at the end of the day if he thinks it will make us better. All this praise means nothing when it comes to who he will keep or trade anymore. That ended with the Butler trade.

Actually, Thibs didn't praise Zach nearly as much as Gorgui. And remember, Thibs wasted no time signing Gorgui to an extension. It's different with Gorgui because Gorgui is Thibs kind of guy. Note also that he trade those two guys for a 28-year old allstar named Jimmy Butler after refusing to do the same last season. I agree Thibs will deal anyone if he things it makes us better and that includes Gorgui. The I also think it's highly unlikely he trades Gorgui. More likely he trades Ricky, but even that seems unlikely.

kekgeek1 wrote:There are reports out there that the wolves will go hard after Lowry.

I like the trade but if the rumors are true we are really pushing chips to the middle

I don't believe the rumors. Remember Thibs telling us in his post season presser that if they pursue vets they have to have a window that matches our young core? Well, one thing I've noticed about Thibs is he doesn't BS. He traded for Jimmy Butler and in explaining the trade the other day he repeatedly highlighted Jimmy's age (27 going on 28) and how importantly it was to get a guy in his 20s rather than his 30s. Lowry is already 31 and he's no Jimmy Butler.

If Thibs signs Lowry, that would mean trading Ricky to open up cap space. It would mean replacing a 26/27-year old PG with a 31 year old. It would also mean a net addition of about $10 million against the cap because Lowry would probably cost at least $24 million per year. I don't see that happening. We already have a really nice starting five with Butler, KAT, Wiggins, Gogui and Ricky, but we essentially no bench beyond a recoverying Belly. We can't afford to tie up an additional $10 million to further strength our starting lineup. Instead, we need to use the $20 million in cap space we have to fill needs (3-point shooting) and fill out the bench. That means pursuing guys like Joe Ingles, Tony Snell, Darren Collison, Pattie Mills, etc.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:If we can land a big in free agency I think that puts G in play for a trade. 14 million is a lot to pay a backup especially one who was sitting on the bench to close games because Belly was a better fit on both ends of the court. Maybe ATL or TOR would be willing to sign and trade for Dieng so we could keep our exceptions to bring in a couple depth guys. We have lots of options so we'll see what we end up with.

I suspect Thibs will explore every possibility to improve the team. But it's highly unlikely he moves Gorgui. Remember that Thibs started the season praising Gorgui as the guy who does the things that don't show up in the box score and he didn't hesitate to give him the contact some are complaining about. Then he told folks internally in the organization that he considered Gorgui the most improved player on the team. So he starts out loving Gorgui and then later notes that Gorgui improved more than anyone else on the roster. That's not someone likely to be dealt. Truth is, Gorgui is more than a backup if KAT becomes a complete player. I can see Ricky being dealt, but even that seems unlikely to me as well.

Thibs praised Zach and Dunn a lot. Thibs will make the deal at the end of the day if he thinks it will make us better. All this praise means nothing when it comes to who he will keep or trade anymore. That ended with the Butler trade.

Actually, Thibs didn't praise Zach nearly as much as Gorgui. And remember, Thibs wasted no time signing Gorgui to an extension. It's different with Gorgui because Gorgui is Thibs kind of guy. Note also that he trade those two guys for a 28-year old allstar named Jimmy Butler after refusing to do the same last season. I agree Thibs will deal anyone if he things it makes us better and that includes Gorgui. The I also think it's highly unlikely he trades Gorgui. More likely he trades Ricky, but even that seems unlikely.

It all depends on how good the options are that are available to improve the team. I'd guess most of us didn't think a Butler deal was gonna happen and really Dunn Lavine and dropping down 9 spots for Butler? That's actually not so different that the rumored trade last year right? So if the Wolves can say deal Rubio to open up cap space to say sign Lowry or something well that's something to consider. I wouldn't bet on it but we will see. To some extent adding Butler changes how this offseason will play out now. There can be some immediacy on these moves but I do think they will still look to add some younger talent to the roster not just sign vets that help now. It might still be that we don't get anyone more exciting than say Ingles or Snell but the percentage of bringing in an all star level guy went up for me with the Butler trade.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:If we can land a big in free agency I think that puts G in play for a trade. 14 million is a lot to pay a backup especially one who was sitting on the bench to close games because Belly was a better fit on both ends of the court. Maybe ATL or TOR would be willing to sign and trade for Dieng so we could keep our exceptions to bring in a couple depth guys. We have lots of options so we'll see what we end up with.

I suspect Thibs will explore every possibility to improve the team. But it's highly unlikely he moves Gorgui. Remember that Thibs started the season praising Gorgui as the guy who does the things that don't show up in the box score and he didn't hesitate to give him the contact some are complaining about. Then he told folks internally in the organization that he considered Gorgui the most improved player on the team. So he starts out loving Gorgui and then later notes that Gorgui improved more than anyone else on the roster. That's not someone likely to be dealt. Truth is, Gorgui is more than a backup if KAT becomes a complete player. I can see Ricky being dealt, but even that seems unlikely to me as well.

Thibs praised Zach and Dunn a lot. Thibs will make the deal at the end of the day if he thinks it will make us better. All this praise means nothing when it comes to who he will keep or trade anymore. That ended with the Butler trade.

Actually, Thibs didn't praise Zach nearly as much as Gorgui. And remember, Thibs wasted no time signing Gorgui to an extension. It's different with Gorgui because Gorgui is Thibs kind of guy. Note also that he trade those two guys for a 28-year old allstar named Jimmy Butler after refusing to do the same last season. I agree Thibs will deal anyone if he things it makes us better and that includes Gorgui. The I also think it's highly unlikely he trades Gorgui. More likely he trades Ricky, but even that seems unlikely.

It all depends on how good the options are that are available to improve the team. I'd guess most of us didn't think a Butler deal was gonna happen and really Dunn Lavine and dropping down 9 spots for Butler? That's actually not so different that the rumored trade last year right? So if the Wolves can say deal Rubio to open up cap space to say sign Lowry or something well that's something to consider. I wouldn't bet on it but we will see. To some extent adding Butler changes how this offseason will play out now. There can be some immediacy on these moves but I do think they will still look to add some younger talent to the roster not just sign vets that help now. It might still be that we don't get anyone more exciting than say Ingles or Snell but the percentage of bringing in an all star level guy went up for me with the Butler trade.

Yes, it depends on the options. But importantly, the Butler deal makes total sense for the Wolves. It clearly makes us much better. But it makes sense in other ways. First, Butler doesn't just make us better, he's a special player. Second, Butler hasn't yet turned 28, so his age window lines up fairly well with KAT and Wiggins. Third, LaVine was due for an extension so we were likely going to tie up big money next starting in the 2018-19 season to keep him, so it made financial sense to trade him for a guy like Butler. So I wasn't surprised at all by the Butler deal. Actually, I was surprised we didn't give up more to get him.

I'd be surprised if we signed Lowry because his age doesn't line up with the window that Thibs pointed to as a reason he liked the Butler deal. Even more importantly, it doesn't fit the current circumstances of the team, which has a strong starting lineup but a very, very weak bench with multiple needs to fill. Again, signing Lowery and dumping Ricky's salary means putting an additional net $10 million into the starting line up, leaving us only around $10 million to fill out a bench that has no one other than Tyus and an still recovering Belly. That simply makes no sense. So while I always believed the rumors surrounding Butler because they made sense, I don't believe the rumors surrounding Lowry.

khans2k5 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:Lip - I think that 24 mil of cap room is a little high. That's the number I came up with, and then noticed that Kevin Martin's stretch deal counts for 1.3 mil this year. So the cap room is a bit under 23 mil...

One other thing for khansie. Since we are sufficiently under the cap such that our salary plus cap holds and exceptions do not reach the minimum salary cap, we lose ALL our exceptions. So we do not have the MLE to use. What we do get is the Room MLE, which is worth about 3 mil.

After the Room MLE is used up, all we can give out are Vet Minimum deals...

(this comes directly from the cbafaq.com, questions 25 and 26)

We are not sufficiently under the cap until we renounce everyone and that'd be pretty dumb to do without a commitment from someone. We are currently at the cap and have both exceptions because all 20 million of this "cap space" is tied up in cap holds for Bazz, Rush, Patton, Payne, Casspi, etc.

You are correct that we are technically over the cap for 2017 when adding in exceptions and cap holds. But it does not do us a ton of good. If we find someone willing to sign for 15+ mil, we need to renounce enough pieces to get under the cap, at which time we lose ALL exceptions, include the MLE. If we sign someone with the MLE first, that adds 8+ mil to our salary, leaving us with less than 15 mil of cap space to spend.

Cap space and the MLE are not intended to give a team a distinct advantage.

My preference is to keep Rubio, but if we do go after another point guard a trade of Rubio for Favors would give us 2.25 mill in extra salary to work with. Favors would expire a year earlier than Rubio but we can worry about that later.

Lip I basically agree with you about Lowry. I think the Wolves are now in a special position where a guy like Lowry could look at this team and look at the Raptors and think about which team will be more likely to win. Jimmy Butler by himself is better than any player on the Raptors. Towns is going to be better if he isn't already. If you add Lowry to this roster just giving up Rubio then you are going to be able to add to the bench with guys willing to take cheap deals because this will absolutely be a contender squad. It doesn't have to be Lowry it could be another younger player. I'm not expecting it to happen and I feel like a homer but adding Butler to the young players we have right now has to look appealing to other players. I'm not sure what higher level player I would want to add I didn't think any of those guys were realistic this summer.

Maybe Gallo decides to take god but not big money to come here and we don't even have to dump anyone (ok maybe nenounce Bazz) to get him. Gallo's injury issues scare me but he fits in a lot of ways and just looking for another guy that fits. There could be some other trade option bringing in a good player that nobody sees coming.

Side note: I am not holding out for Bazz to come back but this team may look more appealing adding Butler to him as well if he wants to be a part of a winning team. It's POSSIBLE he tells the Wolves he wants to be back if he gets some sort of reasonable offer. Like the Dunc'd on podcast guys said he is a RFA that's very gettable because a team could come in with a decent offer right away while the Wolves are looking at other options. We could try that with some other players but I think the Jazz probably value Ingles more than the Wolves do with Bazz. We will see. There are slot of dynamics for various teams and the Jazz are pretty precarious. If Hayward leaves they could be a team that looks for a soft rebuild and may not be interested in locking up a guy like Ingles.

I don't believe the rumors, either, Lip.... it doesn't make much sense for Thibs to spend time worrying about our PG situation when the team clearly has other, more significant needs. One thing we've learned from Thibs is that, unless he's the source of the information, rumors are just rumors.

And as I think you've said (maybe in this thread, maybe elsewhere) that the focus has to be on the 2nd unit -- on both sides of the ball, things look pretty bleak there, especially if Belly isn't back for a while. Patton's likely to be a D-league guy (appropriately so), so no help there. I don't see the Wolves going all in on a big FA, and eating up all the cap space. Monster talked about keeping Rush and Bazz, and I think that makes sense if the price is right. He and Brightside talked about CJ Miles, and I like that idea. I also like your idea of Tony Snell, who has the added bonus (IMO) of having been with Thibs and Butler previously. Brightside mentioned Tolliver or Patterson -- I'd take Patterson over Tolliver, but the Wolves may not be able to afford him.