Minnesota Sports Forum

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I've always liked Ibaka, but I don't see him as part of i0othe answer to this teams' woes. He's not the same player he once was. He's still a good shot-blocker at 1.9 per game, but not what he once was. He's averaging only 6.6 rebounds per game, less than Gorgui with 8 per game and KAT at over 10. We need a guy inside like an Andre Jordan or Drummond to really shore up our interior defense. I can't think of any potential free agents or trade targets who might fit that bill, but that's what I'd be looking for. I still think KAT can and will be a much better defender and Gorgui is better than many think when you watch him in person. Importantly, to be as bad as we've been defensively so far this season, it has to be the whole team. So I think it's more systemic than a reflection of any particular individual players.

Interestingly and ironically, the only starter who's been playing well defensively on a fairly consistent basis is Zach. You appreciate his defense more when you see him in person. You also appreciate his offense even more in person when you see how active he is moving without the ball. Ricky's been pretty good defensively as usual, but not as good as he's been in the past in my opinion.

If this team doesn't turn things around by the end of the season, then I would definitely shop Wiggins. He's the one guy who could potentially bring something meaningful in return and if he stays we'd have to pay him max to keep him. We have Gorgui at a reasonable price and Ricky won't bring much in return. So the talk about trading Ricky or even Gorgui is kind of meaningless. If we sign a big time free agent, we'd probably have to trade KAT, Wiggins or LaVine for salary purposes given that all three will command a max or near max deal to keep them.

Come on man, barely a month ago you were going on about Wiggins hard work in the off season paying off, yes he is having a bad streak here but there is still plenty of time to turn it around for him. We have at least 5 more years with him, while its going to be hard to trade for a solid veteran with more than 2 years of a guaranteed contract. Don't get me wrong if you can trade Wiggins, Dieng and our first for Anthony Davis you make that trade, and sign Gordon Hayward in the off season but I just don't see something like that happening.

Thanks for bringing some real world to the discussion.

Luke Walton would have been so much better coach for this team. Its depressing to see so much talent wasted.

TeamRicky--Luke Walton would have been so much better coach for this team. Its depressing to see so much talent wasted.

Good point. Or Kevin Ollie, or Shaka Smart, or who ever. Thibs is a bad fit. I think the constant bellowing is already being tuned out. If Thibs hasn't lost this team, he will. Say suck it up all you want. This is a players league.

I see no self awareness on the part of Thibs. Does he know who needs tough love, who needs love? Can he sense the players are dispirited and beaten down? I don't see it.

papalrep wrote:TeamRicky--Luke Walton would have been so much better coach for this team. Its depressing to see so much talent wasted.

Good point. Or Kevin Ollie, or Shaka Smart, or who ever. Thibs is a bad fit. I think the constant bellowing is already being tuned out. If Thibs hasn't lost this team, he will. Say suck it up all you want. This is a players league.

I see no self awareness on the part of Thibs. Does he know who needs tough love, who needs love? Can he sense the players are dispirited and beaten down? I don't see it.

I worry about the awareness too, papal. My fear is that he is a "one size fits all" kind of guy, incapable of flexibility. His style worked fine with veteran teams in the weaker East division, but he's been a colossal flop so far with a young team in the stronger conference.

longstrangetrip wrote:

papalrep wrote:TeamRicky--Luke Walton would have been so much better coach for this team. Its depressing to see so much talent wasted.

Good point. Or Kevin Ollie, or Shaka Smart, or who ever. Thibs is a bad fit. I think the constant bellowing is already being tuned out. If Thibs hasn't lost this team, he will. Say suck it up all you want. This is a players league.

I see no self awareness on the part of Thibs. Does he know who needs tough love, who needs love? Can he sense the players are dispirited and beaten down? I don't see it.

I worry about the awareness too, papal. My fear is that he is a "one size fits all" kind of guy, incapable of flexibility. His style worked fine with veteran teams in the weaker East division, but he's been a colossal flop so far with a young team in the stronger conference.

I'm still holding out hope that he's like a basic training instructor that is breaking guys down to a pulp, then eventually he builds them back up into the perennial 29-win team we know they can become!

(Seriously, I do hold out hope our guys "get it" at some point, but even if they do, it's too late to improve on our record much from even last season. Think about it...Matching 29 wins from last season would require a fairly dramatic turn of events. Pathetic).

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I've always liked Ibaka, but I don't see him as part of i0othe answer to this teams' woes. He's not the same player he once was. He's still a good shot-blocker at 1.9 per game, but not what he once was. He's averaging only 6.6 rebounds per game, less than Gorgui with 8 per game and KAT at over 10. We need a guy inside like an Andre Jordan or Drummond to really shore up our interior defense. I can't think of any potential free agents or trade targets who might fit that bill, but that's what I'd be looking for. I still think KAT can and will be a much better defender and Gorgui is better than many think when you watch him in person. Importantly, to be as bad as we've been defensively so far this season, it has to be the whole team. So I think it's more systemic than a reflection of any particular individual players.

Interestingly and ironically, the only starter who's been playing well defensively on a fairly consistent basis is Zach. You appreciate his defense more when you see him in person. You also appreciate his offense even more in person when you see how active he is moving without the ball. Ricky's been pretty good defensively as usual, but not as good as he's been in the past in my opinion.

If this team doesn't turn things around by the end of the season, then I would definitely shop Wiggins. He's the one guy who could potentially bring something meaningful in return and if he stays we'd have to pay him max to keep him. We have Gorgui at a reasonable price and Ricky won't bring much in return. So the talk about trading Ricky or even Gorgui is kind of meaningless. If we sign a big time free agent, we'd probably have to trade KAT, Wiggins or LaVine for salary purposes given that all three will command a max or near max deal to keep them.

Come on man, barely a month ago you were going on about Wiggins hard work in the off season paying off, yes he is having a bad streak here but there is still plenty of time to turn it around for him. We have at least 5 more years with him, while its going to be hard to trade for a solid veteran with more than 2 years of a guaranteed contract. Don't get me wrong if you can trade Wiggins, Dieng and our first for Anthony Davis you make that trade, and sign Gordon Hayward in the off season but I just don't see something like that happening.

Come on man?? Just a few points:

1. Do you really think my concerns about Wiggins are based solely on his recent bad streak this season? I think I've been crystal clear that my concerns are based on 2.25 seasons with the same issues -- ballhandling, decision-making and most important lack of intensity. Of course this last concern dates back to scouting reports coming out of college. Yes, it looked early on like he may have turned things around, but it was simply one of those teasing hot streaks he's shown us for two seasons -- only now in his 3rd season tailing off the way he has and showing a lack of hustle and zeal are more disconcerting.

2. You mentioned that there's still plenty of time for him to turn it around. Ok. Note that I said I'd shop him at the END of the season. And I said shop him, not trade him. Obviously, we'd need to get a worthy return. My main point was that he's one of only three players who could bring a top player in return, but I'd be far more inclined to shop Wiggins than the other two (KAT and Zach). My preference of course would be to fire the head coach rather than trade Wiggins at the end of this season if we don't see substantial improvement by then. But that's probably not a realistic option, so we'll have to consider bold player personnel moves instead.

3. Not sure what you mean when you say we have at least 5 more years with Wiggins. The Wolves will have to make a decision on him next fall as to whether to extend him or let him become a restricted free agent. If we extend him, it will be a max contract.

4. Finally, in fairness to Wiggins, I don't think Thibs is using him well. He continues to have Wiggins as our primary ball-handler in the half court too often. The result is a 1 on 5 drive to the basket. Sometimes it works based on Wiggins incredible talent. But too often it doesn't with a turnover or other bad result. Not Andrew's fault. And tonight against the Warriors Wiggins played well, including some nice defense on Durant. So of course the talent is there and he has the rest of this season for him to show more consistency and competitive fire.

lipoli390 wrote:
The reality is this. Last season's young team outperformed the previous season. And last season's team performed better later in the season than earlier. So far this season's team is on track to finish with a worse record than last and they're worse in every major statistical category. Again, Thibs inherited a team widely regarded as extremely talented and one that had been getting better over time.

We still have 75% of the season to go so I think we need to see this thing play out the rest of the season. But if what we've seen so far continues the rest of the season without significant improvement, then in my experience under your analogy it's the manager not the employees who would be fired.

I think it is much easier to perform well in the end of lost season when there is no pressure to win since they were already out of playoffs anyway. In the beginning of this season they had much more pressure since so many were expecting Wolves to be playoff team this season and it looks like they won't yet perform well under pressure.

longstrangetrip wrote:

papalrep wrote:TeamRicky--Luke Walton would have been so much better coach for this team. Its depressing to see so much talent wasted.

Good point. Or Kevin Ollie, or Shaka Smart, or who ever. Thibs is a bad fit. I think the constant bellowing is already being tuned out. If Thibs hasn't lost this team, he will. Say suck it up all you want. This is a players league.

I see no self awareness on the part of Thibs. Does he know who needs tough love, who needs love? Can he sense the players are dispirited and beaten down? I don't see it.

I worry about the awareness too, papal. My fear is that he is a "one size fits all" kind of guy, incapable of flexibility. His style worked fine with veteran teams in the weaker East division, but he's been a colossal flop so far with a young team in the stronger conference.

I share the same fear. It's interesting that the Wolves had no trouble getting Thibs to come here. I recall Sid reporting that Thibs was lobbying hard for the job. And of course we all heard Thibs refer to this team having "the best young roster in the League." That assessment came after Thibs had watched hours of Wolves' game film and an entire season watching and thinking about NBA basketball. The Wolves are now battling for the worst record in the NBA more than 25% into the season. So think about this. If the team's terrible collective performance so far this season is all on the players and not at all on Thibs, then what does that say about his player evaluation skills as our President of Basketball Operations?

Seriously, if this is the best young roster in the NBA then surely this team wouldn't be one of the two worst teams in the League -- statistically worse than last season and on track to finish with a worse record. If Thibs's coaching isn't responsible for this team's horrible preformance thus far, then he's a colossal failure so far as a talent evaluator and shouldn't be our PBO.

Towns is a generational talent. This team won't be good until he plays some good defense. He sucks right now plain and simple. I don't care who his coach is he should be better than that. I'm tired of him complaining about every play that he got fouled and every play that he didn't foul. I'm tired of him all jacked up for scoring an offensive rebound and then not giving a ton of effort defensively. People aren't happy with Wiggins effort and his demeanor. I'm less annoyed by him than a Towns right now. Wolfson talked to a mental skills coach that wiggins Lavine and Towns all use and have worked with some HS. I didn't listen to the whole spot yet but he said one thing he works with guys on is learning to deal with bad calls. He said a Lavine and awoggins used to go bonkers doing heir exercises for this and they have progressed a lot. I hope that guy can help a Towns some because he lets his emotions get to him. He has passion and that's great but it's not focused right now espcially at key times like when he airmailed passes to fans in the arena. He will figure it out but he is a very big reason the Wolves aren't winning. A lot of that is on him. That's reality.