Tom Thibodeau...let's discusss

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't see anything good that comes out of Rubio being out. And this isn't just about whether there is a drop off or not to Dunn from Rubio (I think there will be, but more on offense than defense). It's the cascade effect it has on our depth. Now we have to dip into the third string guys to make up the minutes.

As for Dunn and our other 4 starters, don't forget that he comes in early off the bench and already sees some time with these guys. It's not like we aren't getting a good look at him.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don't see anything good that comes out of Rubio being out. And this isn't just about whether there is a drop off or not to Dunn from Rubio (I think there will be, but more on offense than defense). It's the cascade effect it has on our depth. Now we have to dip into the third string guys to make up the minutes.

As for Dunn and our other 4 starters, don't forget that he comes in early off the bench and already sees some time with these guys. It's not like we aren't getting a good look at him.

But the team gets to show off its amazing depth!

4 point guards!

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I don't see anything good that comes out of Rubio being out. And this isn't just about whether there is a drop off or not to Dunn from Rubio (I think there will be, but more on offense than defense). It's the cascade effect it has on our depth. Now we have to dip into the third string guys to make up the minutes.

As for Dunn and our other 4 starters, don't forget that he comes in early off the bench and already sees some time with these guys. It's not like we aren't getting a good look at him.

Yeah, I also don't see anything good about Rubio being out. Dunn appears to have enormous potential, but the ability to watch a distributor like Ricky 35 minutes a night would do a lot for his potential. I hate seeing a young PG thrown into the fire before he is ready.

Did anyone hear anything about Ricky today? He was supposed to be evaluated today, but JZ has tweeted nothing. Hopefully this is just a day to day thing...we've all seen what happens to the Wolves when Ricky isn't on the court.

[Monster]

I don't see anything good that comes out of Rubio being out. And this isn't just about whether there is a drop off or not to Dunn from Rubio (I think there will be, but more on offense than defense). It's the cascade effect it has on our depth. Now we have to dip into the third string guys to make up the minutes.

As for Dunn and our other 4 starters, don't forget that he comes in early off the bench and already sees some time with these guys. It's not like we aren't getting a good look at him.

Yeah, I also don't see anything good about Rubio being out. Dunn appears to have enormous potential, but the ability to watch a distributor like Ricky 35 minutes a night would do a lot for his potential. I hate seeing a young PG thrown into the fire before he is ready.

Did anyone hear anything about Ricky today? He was supposed to be evaluated today, but JZ has tweeted nothing. Hopefully this is just a day to day thing...we've all seen what happens to the Wolves when Ricky isn't on the court.

High draft picks?

[Lipoli390]

I'll start with LST's original post in this thread regarding Thibs.

As some might recall, immediately after Thibs was hired, I posted that I would have preferred JVG. My reasoning was that he's a proven top level head coach who preaches defense, but unlike Thibs he has a witty sense of humor and likeable personality that I thought would go over better with our group of young guys. My second choice was Kevin Ollie as an up-and-coming young coach who I thought would blend and grow better with our young core. I was worried that Thibs wouldn't wear well with our young guys. Note that none of his former players seemed to have any inclination to want to play for him once he got here. So LST's early take on what might be wrong with the Wolves reflects my initial concerns about Thibs.

However, I don't think these first two losses point to any problem with Thibs. Instead, I attiribute these losses to our inexperience and lack of toughness against two teams whose key players are both experienced and tough -- namely Conley, Gasol, Randolph for Memphis and Cousins and Gay for the Kings. I also think those two teams have been underrated going into this season. I don't think it's Thibs that caused the Wolves to play much worse late than early in both games. I suspect it was just the opposite. I think we saw the Thibs effect early carrying over from practice. Then, when the game got intense late, our guys reverted to their old habits of one-on-one play, mistakes, turnovers and tentativeness. Those were the hallmarks of last year's Wolves. Old habits die hard and they tend to manifest themselves under pressure when you need more than ever to act instinctively. My sense is that Thibs hasn't yet been able to engrave his attitude and teachings into the fiber and muscle memory of our young players.

So my final diagnosis is that we're going to see this team struggle early but get stronger as the season wears on, provided we don't suffer any more significant injuries following Ricky's unfortunate injury last night. While I remain worried about Thibs long term, I don't think he's had a negative impact on this team to date. To the contrary, in spite of my initial misgivings, I think he'll end up having a major positive impact on this team, teaching them how to play defense and instilling in them some much-needed toughness. It's a tough League and you can't be soft and win. Our guys have to get tougher -- mentally as much as physically. I think they will under Thibs. And I suspect KAT will break out of his funk sometime soon -- perhaps in these next two home games. I do think Thibs made a mistake with that last play call. Wiggins against the entire Kings team seemed the sort of unimaginative play we saw from this team last season. Either KAT or LaVine should have handled the ball before Wiggins. Andrew can't pass so when he has the ball, he'll shoot or drive and he's not a particularly good shooter. KAT's an excellent passer and LaVine is our best shooter by far with a cold-blooded psyche. Note that he didn't miss his free throws in the 4th quarter last night.

[Lipoli390]

I thought the Wolves would end up 1-1 after these first two games, but I'm not shocked we ended up 0-2. It's hard to win on the road in the NBA and the Wolves are still adjusting to a new coach and learning to do things they never even practiced last season.

I'll go out on a limb now and predict that the Wolves win their next two games, both of them at Target Center. So we'll be 2-2 after four games and that's not bad. Then we go from there.

For those who think we're better off with Ricky missing the next month of the season, I have to disagree. Even if you think Dunn is better than Ricky -- a huge stretch -- Ricky's injury is a serious blow to our depth. But long term there could be a bitter silver lining to the extent Ricky's injury accelerates Dunn's development.

For those looking to blame a particular player for the Wolves last two losses, I'll point the finger at KAT. He's the one guy on this team who hasn't performed up to expectations. Perhaps he bought in to his own hype a bit too much. Or maybe he's just trying too hard. Or maybe last season was a fluke and he's really not a superstar in the making. I think he's just had a couple bad games as other teams key on him and bang him around a bit. I will say that I've never thought he's as talented as the unibrow or Cousins. But I still see him as a future allstar. Whether he's a superstar in the making remains to be seen.

I think our best player to date has been LaVine. I like the way he's playing on both ends. His perimeter shooting still looks terrific like late last season and he's improved tremendously going to the hole. Wiggins still misses too many free throws and hasn't developed a 3-point shot, but I like what he's given us so far. He's still a potential superstar. Gorgui has been terrific. I know that Cousins abused him a bit last night, but Cousins is a GREAT player and Gorgui put together a nice game overall. Ricky still can't shoot, but no surprise there. Otherwise he's played well. He's giving the team what should be expected of him -- assists, relatively few turnovers and good defense. Conley lit him up, but Conley's a top PG and does that to many other opposing PGs. And he's always been a particularly tough matchup for Ricky.

I thought Bazz played well last night in the first half and I couldn't understand why Thibs didn't come back to him in the second half.

Overall, I'm not alarmed by the team's two losses or the play of any particularly player so far. I'm not happy with KAT, but I'm cutting him a lot of slack, which i think he has earned from lat season.

[Monster]

I thought the Wolves would energy 1-1 after these first two games, but I'm not shocked we ended up 0-2. It's hard to win on the road in the NBA and the Wolves are still adjusting to a new coach and learning to do things they never even practiced last season.

I'll go out on a limb now and predict that the Wolves win their next two games, both of them at Target Center. So we'll be 2-2 after four games and that's not bad. Then we go from there.

For those who think we're better off with Ricky missing the next month of the season, I have to disagree. Even if you think Dunn is better than Ricky -- a huge stretch -- Ricky's injury is a serious blow to our depth. But long term there could be a bitter silver lining to the extent Ricky's injury accelerates Dunn's development.

For those looking to blame a particular player for the Wolves last two losses, I'll point the finger at KAT. He's the one guy on this team who hasn't performed up to expectations. Perhaps he bought in to his own hype a bit too much. Or maybe he's just trying too hard. Or maybe last season was a fluke and he's really not a superstar in the making. I think he's just had a couple bad games as other teams key on him and bang him around a bit. I will say that I've never thought he's as talented as the unibrow or Cousins. But I still see him as a future allstar. Whether he's a superstar in the making remains to be seen.

I think our best player to date has been LaVine. I like the way he's playing in both ends. His perimeter shooting still looks terrific like last last season and he's improved tremendously going to the hole. Wiggins still misses too many free throws and hasn't developed a 3-point shot, but I like what he's given us so far. He's still potential superstar. Gorgui has been terrific. I know that Cousins abused him a bit last night, but Cousins is a GREAT player and Gorgui put together a nice game overall. Ricky still can't shoot, but no surprise there. Otherwise he's played well. He's giving the team what should be expected of him -- assists, relatively few turnovers and good defense. Conley lit him up, but Conley's a top PG and does that to many opposing PGs. And he's always been a particularly thought matchup for Ricky.

I thought Bazz played well last night in the first half and I couldn't understand why Thibs didn't come back to him in the second half.

Good post except you take on Towns just being an all-star. :) You are dead on it feels like he has been underwhelming outside of the first 12 mins of the season. He will come around though like you said.

Like you said Dieng and the Wolves got ate up by Cousins but the dude is an absolute monster. He has some issues but he also has had some stuff when it comes to his team/franchise holding him back. If Joerger and that franchise can be more than competent yikes. Anyway There isn't much shame in not being able to handle Cousins not many teams can. The bigger problem I had was some of the other balls Kings players that got to balls that should have been more 50/50s.

I also don't quite get why Thibs didn't go back to Bazz. I think because Thibs is considered a top level coach we do forget it still takes a bit of time to figure out some things about your players and rotation even if you are a top 5 coach. Don't teams like the Spurs and Mavs seem to start slow every year and then you look at the standings 15-20 games and there they are at or near the top where you would expect them? It may take a bit for Thibs to get his feel too.

Man it's easy to get the Kings and Memphis mixed up especially playing them back to back because there are so many common players and coaches etc. Also this was clearly a revenge game for the Kings to win for Brian Gates. :)

[Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]]

Well, if Rubio is out for a few weeks it would be a good litmus test to see if he adds value to the team on both ends on the floor. I'm kinda excited to see how it goes.

Silver lining, isn't it?

Maybe. Then again, if they go 4 - 12... we have the answer.

And another lost season.

I may be so. But I more interested how offensively efficient the team can be.: FG%. pts per 100 poss. TO rate. Basically can Towns, Wiggins and LaVine do it on their own offensively. I'm not talking about Dunn here as he adds little on offense so far, but it's interesting what he adds defensively as before the drop off was big from Rubio to Tyus, Miller, LaVine, Mo Will, Barea.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Well, if Rubio is out for a few weeks it would be a good litmus test to see if he adds value to the team on both ends on the floor. I'm kinda excited to see how it goes.

Silver lining, isn't it?

Maybe. Then again, if they go 4 - 12... we have the answer.

And another lost season.

I may be so. But I more interested how offensively efficient the team can be.: FG%. pts per 100 poss. TO rate. Basically can Towns, Wiggins and LaVine do it on their own offensively. I'm not talking about Dunn here as he adds little on offense so far, but it's interesting what he adds defensively as before the drop off was big from Rubio to Tyus, Miller, LaVine, Mo Will, Barea.

One thing I can't shake when it comes to PGs...

With sound team defense, you can hide a PG who struggles defensively enough to win games. Can you win enough games with a PG who struggles offensively (if you don't have a Wade/Bryant/James de facto PG next to them?

Even if Dunn has the defensive chops, which he'll still be learning how to use as he acclimates to the NBA, I don't think he has the offensive game to offset it. But we'll find out soon enough.

[Lipoli390]

I tend to agree with Abe on this. I'm not concerned about Dunn's poor shooting, which is every bit as bad as Ricky's. I'm far more worried about Dunn's ball-handling and decision-making at this point in his young career. We'll see.