longstrangetrip wrote:Camden wrote:You were arguing about a length disadvantage. LaVine's the same height or taller than 18 starting shooting guards, and 21 if we recognize him at 6'6" like his combine measurement indicates. Not including LaVine, the average starting shooting guard's weight is 208 lbs and eight of the SGs on this list are 200 lbs or less, not including LaVine. Guys, he's 20-years old. He's going to add weight. He just added close to 10 lbs over the summer. Also, none of these guys have the raw athleticism that he does. Stop acting like he's at a physical disadvantage when he's really not.
30. Nik Stauskas - 6'6", 205 lbs.
29. Andre Roberson - 6'7", 210 lbs.
28. Gary Harris - 6'4", 210 lbs.
27. Ben McLemore - 6'5", 195 lbs.
26. Courtney Lee - 6'5", 200 lbs.
25. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - 6'5", 205 lbs.
24. C.J. McCollum - 6'4", 200 lbs.
23. Avery Bradley - 6'2", 180 lbs.
22. J.R. Smith - 6'6", 225 lbs.
21. Eric Gordon - 6'4", 215 lbs.
20. Bojan Bogdanovic - 6'8", 216 lbs.
19. Zach LaVine - 6'5", 189 lbs.
18. Rodney Hood - 6'8", 206 lbs.
17. Arron Afflalo - 6'5", 210 lbs.
16. Khris Middleton - 6'8", 234 lbs.
15. Demar DeRozan - 6'7", 220 lbs.
14. Victor Oladipo - 6'4", 210 lbs.
13. Monta Eliis - 6'3", 185 lbs.
12. J.J. Redick - 6'4", 190 lbs.
11. Wes Matthews - 6'5", 220 lbs.
10. Jordan Clarkson - 6'5", 194 lbs.
9. Danny Green - 6'6", 215 lbs.
8. P.J. Hairston - 6'6", 230 lbs.
7. Bradley Beal - 6'5", 207 lbs.
6. Kent Bazemore - 6'5", 201 lbs.
5. Jimmy Butler - 6'7", 220 lbs.
4. Brandon Knight - 6'3", 189 lbs.
3. Dwyane Wade - 6'4", 220 lbs.
2. Klay Thompson - 6'7", 215 lbs.
1. James Harden - 6'5", 220 lbs.
Hmm...a quick look at that list tells me that Zach is middle of the pack in SG height, but weighs less than every other SG except Ellis, Knight and Bradley. I wonder if that's why those three guys are considered by many to be more PGs than SGs...good coaches don't like unattractive size disadvantages. I'll match up Zach against those three and a few others any day at SG (although I still prefer him at PG), but don't make the kid go up night after night against so many of the other guys who have 30+ pounds on him...that's just not fair to him. I agree that he is likely to put on some weight (although we keep waiting for some guys like KG to fill out, and some never do), but the issue is not where he belongs down the road...it's where he belongs now. I have no problem with Zach backing up Wig at the 2 eventually if he gets stronger, Martin leaves, and Tyus (or someone else) proves to be an adequate backup to Ricky...and Ricky shows he can play 70 games. That very well may be his final destiny. But until those three (or 4) things happen, Zach fits this team better at PG...and stats show he's doing a terrific job relative to other young PGs. Give the guy a chance to continue developing at a position that takes almost every NBA time to master! He's either going to become a very good PG, or as Flip said so many times, these PG minutes will help him become a better SG down the road.
The issue here seems to me to be that the "Zach needs to be a SG" crowd is relying mostly on eye test and opinion, while the other side (admittedly a lonely side with pretty much only Sam, Jim Pete and me currently!) points to hard data and matchup size to support their case. I'm going to continue to favor the latter until the stats prove that Sam is wrong. If that ever happens, and Zach starts delivering stats at the bottom of his peer group rather than the top, I'll gladly move out of my lonely place and join all of you. Until then, all the hard data tells me Zach is right where he belongs.
Did you read http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/11/14/9733532/recognizing-the-problem-the-wolves-and-the-point-guard-positionThis?
"So far this season, when Zach LaVine is on the floor, the Wolves are roughly 9 points/100 possessions worse than when he's not. This is not entirely on him, of course, but it's a baseline for the following information: in the few minutes he's been on the floor along with Ricky Rubio, the Wolves are +88/100 (in just over 9 minutes). Last night was the first time LaVine shared extended minutes on the court with Andre Miller, checking into the game with three minutes left in the third quarter. The two of them shared the court for the final 15 minutes of the game, and were +16 points over that time.
In other words, in the roughly 10% of his minutes this season that LaVine has shared the court with a point guard, hence occupying the shooting guard position, he's been a part of successful lineups; in the vast majority of his minutes when he's been asked to play the point guard position, the team has been badly outplayed."
Granted, this is a small sample size, but I'm curious what hard data you or Sam have that says Lavine is best suited at PG right now.
I'm assuming everyone else agrees the Wolves have been performing better so far when Lavine plays the 2 rather than point. If playing PG now will help him become a better basketball player later in his career, then at least that seems reasonable given that he develops into something great. But what Sam Mitchell is saying in interviews is that Zach Lavine will be a PG in this league. I just don't see on the court what would convince you or him of that. All of his weaknesses become glaringly obvious when he is asked to play PG. Will having him play PG force him to improve on those weaknesses? Yes, but I don't see decision making/running the offense becoming a strength of Lavine's game. Rather, I see his current strengths, shooting/quick step/aggressive drives to the basket continuing to develop and becoming the strong point of his game. If this were a player that was 6'0, we'd label him as an undersized SG/combo guard and he'd make or break it as a backup guard in this league. But he is 6'5 and absolutely capable of guarding opposing SGs.
Here's what I really hope, all of Mitchell's talk about Lavine playing PG is complete bullshit. He recognized early on there is a logjam at the 2-3 position on this team, and until we trade Martin (which I think is inevitable), we shift Lavine over to PG so that everyone gets minutes and is happy. He still develops and gets a guaranteed 20 minutes, and I don't think any of the "Lavine is a SG" camp is that upset with these circumstances. And Mitchell is just putting on a charade to the media, instead of saying "Yea, we're shopping Martin and until he's gone, the only minutes we can get Lavine are at PG"
But if Mitchell genuinely believes Lavine is going to "make or break it as a PG in the nba":
1. our coach is stupid and shouldn't make bold statements like that to the media. keep it to yourself.
2. why is he implying that Lavine can't make it as a starting SG? This is what really drives me crazy because I see his potential I think the kid can absolutely make it as a SG, and so far, he has shown the most promise when put in that position. But here we are pigeonholing a 20 year player into a position that is new to him, he's struggling with, it's hurting our lineup's production when he's placed in it, and basically saying he will be a backup PG behind Rubio for the immediate future. It's not that I even disagree that Lavine could make it as a PG, it's that it seems much more likely so far that he makes it playing SG.
3. What the hell changed between the beginning of preseason, when Lavine was announced as our starting SG, and now? None of this adds up.
