Wiggins: "I want to be here forever"

[mjs34]

Love literally never had the full support of this organization so he left. That's what you do when your bosses suck and never put their faith in your abilities. Don't give me the we gave him $60 million reasons to get over it bullshit. He's the only max guy in forever to not get the deal he wanted because we had an owner and GM who thought they were the smartest guys in the room while running the worst franchise in the league at the time. In a players league that is an absolute fucking joke. There are only a handful of stars in the league and they get to dictate where they go for the most part and we had one who was willing to sign a 5 year deal and we didn't give it to him. He may not have made it here all 5 years but that was because he like many on the board saw this team's potential was capped around him because it wasn't built correctly and Flip was just trying to do patch jobs to get us better in hopes it would have convinced him to stay. It wouldn't have worked because it takes more than 1 star to win in this league and we had a bunch of the wrong role players around him.


That deal was the straw that broke the camels back because the team around him was garbage and then they gave him an offer that said you still aren't good enough for us. He spent his entire career here with nobody in the organization believing in him until the damage was already done. He gave us a fair chance and our organization failed miserably. Money is not a good enough reason to say he should have put up with all the bullshit and been a good soldier. The Cleveland situation is yet another one where he's being put down because he's not the 3 and D specialist they want him to be. Another example of an organization just not getting it. He's gonna keep leaving until he finds someone who says you're my guy and we're gonna build a winner around you and they actually carry out that promise.

Love may not have liked it in MN, but he gave them every chance to keep him and they repeatedly came back at him with an attitude of you're not good enough so he got out. This situation is 100% the organization's fault and to blame Love for having 1 foot out the door is absurd because that is what every person does at their jobs where they are never supported and told they are not good enough. Only Love was the 5 star prospect every other organization says we'll give you whatever you want because you're one of the best at what you do and let us know what you need to make it work.

Didn't have the full support???

They brought in Rick Adelman and blew up their rebuilding plan in favor of trying to make the playoffs, which completely screwed up the team moving forward. Then a year after maxing out the cap with those valuable vets, Love demands a trade.

OKC refused to give Harden the max salary for four years, and he looks like a much better player than Love going forward. Curry didn't get anywhere close to a max deal because he had an injury history (not that different from Love's). Just being a team's best player doesn't mean you are a max player. If anything, Love has proven Kahn right in his decision, and all the cry baby crap means nothing in the end. You are either a winner or a whiner, and we know which applies to Love.

[mjs34]

I think it makes Kahn look savvy because Love is demonstrating why he shouldn't be a team's only 5 year max player. Love wanted it, a majority of the fans wanted to see it, but Kahn didn't bend to that pressure. I think you have to give him credit for that one.

But the Wolves don't have anybody even remotely close to getting the designated contract that Love would have had.

Derrick Williams and to a much larger extent, Rubio, flamed out as potential suitors for it. So what was so savvy about alienating the best player in favor of currying favor with lesser players?

Again, it was blind luck years later that makes the decision then look "savvy."

Abe, I am not so sure to knock Rubio off the list when you look at the difference he makes to the team in an on/off comparison. One could argue that he is more important to the teams success than Love ever was. I am not saying that Ricky is a max guy (not even close), but I think that says more about Love's value, than Ricky's.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think it makes Kahn look savvy because Love is demonstrating why he shouldn't be a team's only 5 year max player. Love wanted it, a majority of the fans wanted to see it, but Kahn didn't bend to that pressure. I think you have to give him credit for that one.

But the Wolves don't have anybody even remotely close to getting the designated contract that Love would have had.

Derrick Williams and to a much larger extent, Rubio, flamed out as potential suitors for it. So what was so savvy about alienating the best player in favor of currying favor with lesser players?

Again, it was blind luck years later that makes the decision then look "savvy."

Abe, I am not so sure to knock Rubio off the list when you look at the difference he makes to the team in an on/off comparison. One could argue that he is more important to the teams success than Love ever was. I am not saying that Ricky is a max guy (not even close), but I think that says more about Love's value, than Ricky's.

Can you post the On/Off numbers for each guy so we can see? I'm lazy.

[mjs34]

I think it makes Kahn look savvy because Love is demonstrating why he shouldn't be a team's only 5 year max player. Love wanted it, a majority of the fans wanted to see it, but Kahn didn't bend to that pressure. I think you have to give him credit for that one.

But the Wolves don't have anybody even remotely close to getting the designated contract that Love would have had.

Derrick Williams and to a much larger extent, Rubio, flamed out as potential suitors for it. So what was so savvy about alienating the best player in favor of currying favor with lesser players?

Again, it was blind luck years later that makes the decision then look "savvy."

Abe, I am not so sure to knock Rubio off the list when you look at the difference he makes to the team in an on/off comparison. One could argue that he is more important to the teams success than Love ever was. I am not saying that Ricky is a max guy (not even close), but I think that says more about Love's value, than Ricky's.

Can you post the On/Off numbers for each guy so we can see? I'm lazy.

I am as well, but I do remember Ricky's rookie season, and this team playing around the .500 mark until Ricky went down and then they completely tanked the rest of the season with Adelman trying to win every game. I remember pointing out that Rambis had about the same winning percentage the year before compared to Adelman without Ricky.

The wolves posted 31 wins the following season without Love for most of it, and having several other injuries as well.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Love literally never had the full support of this organization so he left. That's what you do when your bosses suck and never put their faith in your abilities. Don't give me the we gave him $60 million reasons to get over it bullshit. He's the only max guy in forever to not get the deal he wanted because we had an owner and GM who thought they were the smartest guys in the room while running the worst franchise in the league at the time. In a players league that is an absolute fucking joke. There are only a handful of stars in the league and they get to dictate where they go for the most part and we had one who was willing to sign a 5 year deal and we didn't give it to him. He may not have made it here all 5 years but that was because he like many on the board saw this team's potential was capped around him because it wasn't built correctly and Flip was just trying to do patch jobs to get us better in hopes it would have convinced him to stay. It wouldn't have worked because it takes more than 1 star to win in this league and we had a bunch of the wrong role players around him.


That deal was the straw that broke the camels back because the team around him was garbage and then they gave him an offer that said you still aren't good enough for us. He spent his entire career here with nobody in the organization believing in him until the damage was already done. He gave us a fair chance and our organization failed miserably. Money is not a good enough reason to say he should have put up with all the bullshit and been a good soldier. The Cleveland situation is yet another one where he's being put down because he's not the 3 and D specialist they want him to be. Another example of an organization just not getting it. He's gonna keep leaving until he finds someone who says you're my guy and we're gonna build a winner around you and they actually carry out that promise.

Love may not have liked it in MN, but he gave them every chance to keep him and they repeatedly came back at him with an attitude of you're not good enough so he got out. This situation is 100% the organization's fault and to blame Love for having 1 foot out the door is absurd because that is what every person does at their jobs where they are never supported and told they are not good enough. Only Love was the 5 star prospect every other organization says we'll give you whatever you want because you're one of the best at what you do and let us know what you need to make it work.

Didn't have the full support???

They brought in Rick Adelman and blew up their rebuilding plan in favor of trying to make the playoffs, which completely screwed up the team moving forward. Then a year after maxing out the cap with those valuable vets, Love demands a trade.

OKC refused to give Harden the max salary for four years, and he looks like a much better player than Love going forward. Curry didn't get anywhere close to a max deal because he had an injury history (not that different from Love's). Just being a team's best player doesn't mean you are a max player. If anything, Love has proven Kahn right in his decision, and all the cry baby crap means nothing in the end. You are either a winner or a whiner, and we know which applies to Love.

Neither Harden nor Curry were actually max players when it was time to sign an extension. Harden was a sixth man and Curry was coming off a big ankle injury. Love averaged 20/15 and 41% 3pt shooting in year 3 before extensions are usually agreed to and 26/13 and 37% shooting the year the deal was signed with little injury history. Curry's big ankle injury hit in year 3 leaving them essentially a month in year 4 to get the deal done with that injury history. Curry could have easily turned down the extension and become a max player the next summer but even he was worried about the injury possibly having a long-term affect hence why he signed the deal. Harden started 7 games for OKC in his career. He was dealt after 3 years before he became a max guy. Also that goes down as one of the worst trades in NBA history so it's not a great support for a team not paying one of it's stars.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Didn't have the full support???

They brought in Rick Adelman and blew up their rebuilding plan in favor of trying to make the playoffs, which completely screwed up the team moving forward. Then a year after maxing out the cap with those valuable vets, Love demands a trade.

OKC refused to give Harden the max salary for four years, and he looks like a much better player than Love going forward. Curry didn't get anywhere close to a max deal because he had an injury history (not that different from Love's). Just being a team's best player doesn't mean you are a max player. If anything, Love has proven Kahn right in his decision, and all the cry baby crap means nothing in the end. You are either a winner or a whiner, and we know which applies to Love.

To be fair, there's some very important context that needs to be addressed here in regards to Harden:

OKC was one of the top 2 teams in the league. They had two SUPERSTARS on the roster in Durant and Westbrook and another very good player in Ibaka. The Wolves were the worst team in the league, coming off a 2-year stretch of 32 - 132. Plus, signing Love wasn't putting Taylor into the luxury tax.

So to have a player who seemed to improve each year and posted ridiculous stats WANT to stay for a franchise that was THAT bad and had been as bad as it is for so long, in an area where top free agents aren't coming... it turned heads.

On/Off numbers have been shown. Another stat is Win Shares. Until Kevin Love came along, only ONE player on a team with a losing record finished in the top 5 for Win Shares in 20+ years. (and that guy finished 39 - 43).

In 2011, Kevin Love was 4th in Win Shares until he sat out the final 6 games, dropping out of the top 5. The next season, the Wolves went 26 - 40 and Love finished 5th. No other player in the top 20 played for a losing team either season. In 2014, the Wolves finished below .500... yet Love was 3rd for Win Shares.

Just like the On/Off stat, there's probably a lot of noise in there... but it was unprecedented for a guy on a team THAT bad to finish that high in Win Shares. And Love did it multiple times. Fluke? Funny stats? Or, telling?

That's kind of the Kevin Love Legacy in a nutshell, right?

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think it makes Kahn look savvy because Love is demonstrating why he shouldn't be a team's only 5 year max player. Love wanted it, a majority of the fans wanted to see it, but Kahn didn't bend to that pressure. I think you have to give him credit for that one.

But the Wolves don't have anybody even remotely close to getting the designated contract that Love would have had.

Derrick Williams and to a much larger extent, Rubio, flamed out as potential suitors for it. So what was so savvy about alienating the best player in favor of currying favor with lesser players?

Again, it was blind luck years later that makes the decision then look "savvy."

Abe, I am not so sure to knock Rubio off the list when you look at the difference he makes to the team in an on/off comparison. One could argue that he is more important to the teams success than Love ever was. I am not saying that Ricky is a max guy (not even close), but I think that says more about Love's value, than Ricky's.

Can you post the On/Off numbers for each guy so we can see? I'm lazy.

I am as well, but I do remember Ricky's rookie season, and this team playing around the .500 mark until Ricky went down and then they completely tanked the rest of the season with Adelman trying to win every game. I remember pointing out that Rambis had about the same winning percentage the year before compared to Adelman without Ricky.

The wolves posted 31 wins the following season without Love for most of it, and having several other injuries as well.

How many games did Ricky win without Love this year? At the end of the day they were a perfect match. A stretch 4 elite stat stuffer and a floor general leader with a huge desire to leave it all on the court. Surround those two with the right talent and they could have won a lot together. Together they were great, but apart neither of them were successful during their time here.

[Coolbreeze44]

I don't look at it like - Love is the best we have so he should get a 5 year max. You either deserve it or you don't. It really doesn't matter how good you are relative to the other stiffs on your roster. Kahn did it at the time to maintain flexibility moving forward. And this flexibility plays at least a part in our latest rebuilding effort.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don't look at it like - Love is the best we have so he should get a 5 year max. You either deserve it or you don't. It really doesn't matter how good you are relative to the other stiffs on your roster. Kahn did it at the time to maintain flexibility moving forward. And this flexibility plays at least a part in our latest rebuilding effort.

We disagree again. And that's fine.

Personally, I think David Kahn's legacy is one of the worst in modern NBA history.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I don't look at it like - Love is the best we have so he should get a 5 year max. You either deserve it or you don't. It really doesn't matter how good you are relative to the other stiffs on your roster. Kahn did it at the time to maintain flexibility moving forward. And this flexibility plays at least a part in our latest rebuilding effort.

Love was a 5 year max guy. The guy became a freaking top 5 MVP candidate. Elite, versatile offensive players deserve the max. End of story. Your ability to win a title should have no bearing on if you get the max or don't because one guy can't win a title. Love wasn't just the best we had. He was the best PF in the league. We aren't even talking about the veteran max either. This is the rookie max worth 5% less total which becomes significant considering 7.5% raises every year.


I personally think it is crazy to use the eventual return we got for him as an influence to make the deal seem like a good move. At the time this board was all bad move or he should leave if we aren't good by the time his option was coming up. Well option 2 happened because we didn't have the time to build it right around him because of the 2 year swing in the deal. Remember, he would have been signed through this year, next year and the next year if he got the 5 year deal. That's a crazy huge swing and who knows what could have happened in that time. Flip still gets to take a swing at Lavine for that second star and had 2 years of Lavine to see if that was a possibility before Love could effectively force his way out. A lot would have been different had we had the option to keep him for 2 more years. What if we get the same injuries and we get a top 10 pick and get WCS? Long-term team of Ricky, Lavine, Brewer, Love, WCS. A lot could have been different and also been viable towards the goal of a title.