Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

TheSP wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

TheSP wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:

TheSP wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:LOL, so Wolves are finally sitting pretty with two 1st overall pick plus a bunch of other young talents but you guys come here to b/tch about freaking Payne?! Haha LOSERS!!!

Yeah, we are probably spending too much time talking about this trade. Payne should be our 3rd string PF this year, and if the Wolves woeful playoff record continues, the asset we give up for him would be a second rounder in 2021...not a very consequential trade for either team. But I take a more optimistic viewpoint, and think that the Adreian Payne I watched in Vegas this summer will be one of several contributors that will help the Wolves get to the playoffs this year. And if so, it would be difficult to get to upset about not having a pick somewhere in the 20s next year...we'll be too busy analyzing our first round opponent!

Yeah, lost in these conversations is the fact that 99% of mid to late first round picks are at beat rotation players. Payne only needs to be solid contributor to justify the pick.

Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Eric Bledsoe, Serge Ibaka, Jeff Teague, Rudy Gobert, The Greek Freek, Kyle Lowry, Vucevic, Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo, Demarre Carroll, Ryan Anderson might disagree with your math.

Just a quick glance through your list and we have Rondo, drafted in 2006, so counting all drafts between then and 2014 we would have nine years, or 144 players drafted in the first round, 15th or lower, the 14 players you listed represents about 2.78% so I was off by 1.8% on an exaggeration!! If I can be that good on a guess imagine how good I could be if I ever tried!!!

[sub]Actually, If I'm being honest I probably would be further off had I tried! :)[/sub]

Maybe an easier way to evaluate the quality of what the Wolves may have given up for Payne is to list all the non-lottery 1st round draft picks that we have drafted in the history of the franchise...and keep in mind there are several GMs involved in these picks. Ready?

Gerald Glass
Paul Grant
Rasho Nesterovic
Ndudi Ebi
Wayne Ellington
Lazar Hayward
Andre Roberson
Tyus Jones

I'm quite optimistic about Jones, but I don't think I would trade any Payne for any other of those guys. I recognize the Wolves haven't historically had as good fortune with their draft picks as other franchises, but still, this seems like the most reasonable way of evaluating what we gave up for AP.

I don't think giving the Wolves a break based upon past incompetence is a good idea! Even more I don't think its necessary given that if we were to make a list of players picked 15th or lower since the Wolves inception, I would be shocked if the percentage that we would agree were quality starters would greater than 5%, tops IMO. Yes, some teams like the Spurs have been better at finding those needles in the haystack, but even they miss far more than they hit!

The only Wolves player that would qualify that I can think of would be Pek, and he really shouldn't count given he was one of those players taken with the first pick in the second as it was the only way he'd come over. You can bet 30 teams out of 30 take Pek with that pick.

Rasho was a very solid center for where he was picked. If you could get him as a sure thing it might be worth it. The rest of those guys (Tyus Jones we don't know yet) are not too exciting. Lol

Thats kind of the point though, he was a quality rotation player, and a starter on teams that didn't have anything better, no more. In the second half of the first round you're looking for good bench players, or fringe starters, if you hit on better then good on you. If you don't, and most don't, you're ahead of the game with a quality bench contributor.

There is absolutely nothing at this point that says Payne cannot be a quality bench player. Of course his age and rookie season don't point toward his being more than that, and the possibility that he'll be less is surely still on the table, but its way to early to dump on him IMO.

"I'm quite optimistic about Jones, but I don't think I would trade any Payne for any other of those guys."

I'm not. I'd rather have Cedi Osman than our cute local, I dont know anything about Rakeem Christmas. I wont be able to help myself, I will be watching Cedi Osman develop (and Tyus). I'd be glad to be wrong, but I dont think that was a good trade

1. We overpaid like hell for Payne when the Hawks made it clear they were looking to move a body and open a roster spot, likely for a shooter. Minnesota should have had leverage there, and Flip still got taken behind the woodshed. You do NOT pay top dollar for a marginal player when the team that has him is looking to offload him.

2. The timing of the trade was poor. Mid-season acquisition when it's evident that the season was lost/ Already had Young and Bennett, who at the time was the "development" guy at that position. Why is a bottom-of-the-league team trading a potential first round pick for roster help down the stretch?

3. Payne the player is no better than what you'd find in the D-League. This is an example of Flip relying on his best friend Izzo for inside information on a guy that he's obviously going to be biased about. Payne was a four-year Michigan State player, a 24-year old rookie who looked absolutely lost on an NBA floor. I don't want to hear about how little practice he got with the team. Guys who can play are capable of showing competence regardless of the circumstances. All he brought to the table was hit-or-miss energy, and what I mean by that is sometimes his energy was useful and other times it was an absolute liability.

4. Was acquiring Payne worth handcuffing your team to him instead of making a potentially bigger/better trade in the future? We do not have a future first round pick to include in a trade because of this particular deal. That in itself makes this deal tough to swallow. We're a young team with a ton of attractive assets, and if some All-Star player became available in the near future, we could theoretically make a good play for him on the trade market. We just won't have a first rounder to include in that offer, which absolutely could hold the franchise back.

If you hell bent on trading a future pick for an All star you can trade as many as you want. You can mortgage(trade) your future picks for 20 years in advance. See Brooklyn Nets.

If both AB and Payne were free agents. I would expect AB might to get an NBA contract and Payne to be out of the league. (we will see about AB)

bleedspeed177 wrote:If both AB and Payne were free agents. I would expect AB might to get an NBA contract and Payne to be out of the league. (we will see about AB)

meh, it's just your personal opinion, it doesn't carry a lot of weight as you not a NBA decision maker. I'd say all these athletes get multiple chances as they are clearly talented enough to get drafted in the first place. I think you speak with a lot of bias.

I think Ab is 21 with potential. I think Payne is 24 and couldn't beat out a 2nd rounder from the year before. I don't think Payne would get much love as a FA. I doubt the Hawks would take him back.

bleedspeed177 wrote:I think Ab is 21 with potential. I think Payne is 24 and couldn't beat out a 2nd rounder from the year before. I don't think Payne would get much love as a FA. I doubt the Hawks would take him back.

Bennett is 22 and has been since March.

I will say this Payne has a couple things going for him that Bennett doesn't and that's length (which gives you the option of being a legit PF/C) and he has shown he plays hard. I am not saying he would be overall more desirable than Bennett if they were FAs. Right now it would depend on the team but I would bet that there were more teams than the Hawks that liked him a little over a year ago and would have interest. I tend to think that despite his awkwardness Payne has more skills offensively than the typical long athletic big you think about from the d-league. Will they translate? Idk we will find out. There are probably teams that have no real interest in Bennett at the vet min either. I am not saying Payne is good but I can see teams seeing something possibly worthwhile there.

IMO The key for both guys going forward is if they can find their role. Bennett has to figure out what he is good at and do that with more effort and Payne needs to do fewer things and be more in control. in some ways they are oddly sorta similar in skills and yet wildly different in what they need to do to get to a place to be useful players.

IMO the key for both is to make as much money as they can because they won't be in the league by the time they are 30.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:If both AB and Payne were free agents. I would expect AB might to get an NBA contract and Payne to be out of the league. (we will see about AB)

meh, it's just your personal opinion, it doesn't carry a lot of weight as you not a NBA decision maker. I'd say all these athletes get multiple chances as they are clearly talented enough to get drafted in the first place. I think you speak with a lot of bias.

Bleed - I think you've been outed as someone who has bias and isn't an NBA decision-maker. Unlike the rest of us. Lol. In spite of your bias (maybe you're Bennett's American brother) I generally agree with you. I don't expect either one to amount to much as an NBA player. But if I had to choose I'd choose Bennett. He has a better overall skill set, is significantly younger than Payne and had stats as a college freshman comparable to Payne's as a college senior.