Keepers for Next Season

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Coolbreeze44
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

kekgeek1 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:Why is everyone bringing up all these negative stats about Dlo. But when Dlo and Kat play together they are 10-7. Why does that not matter. The most important stat in basketball is the W column and if I am not mistaken 10-7 is very solid and is a good enough for the 5 seed.

Why does winning not matter. Wolves have only won this year when Dlo and Kat have played together. Why does that not matter. Why do we want to break up legit the only thing that has been successful this year. We are the worst team in the NBA when those 2 don't play together. So lets break it up. That seems really smart.


I think Ant and McDaniels have something to do with that 10-7 record. Without them we are not 10-7 over that stretch. And quite frankly, we've won some games in spite of DLO. He hasn't been good a lot of nights.


That is just not true. I know you do not like Dlo, I get it you don't think we can win with him. I get it I really do. We are 7-4 in clutch games since Dlo has been back. Dlo is leading our team in clutch scoring on 50/36/100 splits. Hey Ant is doing great when the game is on the line he is shooting a solid 25% and has more turnovers then asts. LETS GO!!!! ANT TIME. HE MIGHT BE THE GREATEST CLUTCH PLAYER EVER. HE IS CARRYING DLO. Also Dlo is 2nd on the Wolves in +/- in clutch time this season for players who have played in over 20 games with clutch situations only behind Rubio (rubio, Dlo, Kat, Ant, Mcdaniels and Beasley have played over 20 games in the clutch)

*I like Ant I really do but he has not been good down the stretch in games since players have came back. I think he will for sure get their but in those situations he has not been good. I like Mcdaniels also as you know but at the end he is one of the supporting pieces, I think he can be elite at that though.

Settle down Kek. Stop cherry picking stats that support your narrative only. Look at some of the shooting nights DLO has had since he came back. Obviously they aren't all bad, but he's had a few clunkers. I think narrowing down the reason for our 10-7 record to just KAT and DLO playing together is really a stretch. I'll give you that it's one factor, but it's kind of narrow to look at it as A + B = C.
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Monster
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Monster »

FNG wrote:Monster- you have a terrific talent for presenting things in the most positive light...I don't know what you do for a living, but I would guess that people that work for you are pretty happy! (I mean that)

BUT- let's provide a little balance when we discuss our 2nd highest paid player. You point out some stats that are true and quite positive. He does score at a high rate...24.5 points per 36 minutes is damn good production. And he does get a lot of assists with his sometimes spectacular passing...7 per 36 minutes. And you didn't mention that he is making his 3-pointers at a high rate for him...almost 39%. That's the good part of Dlo.

But you conveniently left out several stats where he ranks either below average or far below average:

-his assists are fun to watch, but he takes too many chances. Hence, his A:To ratio is not very good compared to Rubio- 2.1 compared to 3.9, a significant difference. Dlo turns the ball over too much and turnovers hurt, because they mean both a lost offensive opportunity and often lead to an easy basket on the other end...they're often 4-point swings.

-while he is a volume scorer, he has never been an efficient scorer. His eFG% of 52.9% this year is better than his poor career average of 50%, but still ranks in the bottom half of the league.

-And then there's his defense. I've pointed out a couple times this year times when he actually looked like he was performing at an average level on defense. But I admit I had my rose-colored glasses on, because I know that turning into Dlo into a guy that doesn't give up points at an alarming rate is vital to this team's success. And the numbers don't lie. His DRPM of -1.97 ranks him 79th out of 91 point guards. That's terrible for a guy making $30 mil.

-And finally there's his consistently horrible on/off numbers. Dlo's -5 remains the worst of the 11 Wolves who have gotten consistent minutes this year. We rip on Jarrett Culver here and he has worked himself out of the rotation, but even a disastrous player like Culver is only 3 points worse than Dlo in on/off. Defense matters guys, and if you don't care about it like Dlo doesn't, you're always going to hurt your team.

So we know what we are going to get with Dlo. A productive but not efficient scorer who will get some assists while not protecting the ball well, but whose really bad defense is going to mean that the Wolves do much better when he is on the bench than when he is on the court. Any one of these four things (very poor defense, only average A:To ratio, below average efficiency in shooting, and consistently poor on/off numbers) might be a reason not to deserve a max contract, but Dlo has four damning stats. There's just no way to sugarcoat it...Rosas made a terrible deal, and I see our ceiling as a .500 ballclub if he can't find someone to take Dlo off our hands. I agree with Doper and others that it's not going to happen, but I would suggest it's not going to happen for the wrong reason...3 GMs jettisoned him before his 25th birthday, and to Cool's point, it's unlikely we will find another sucker.

Sorry to pile on Dlo, but this thread is about who we should keep, and keeping Dlo and paying him over 1/4 of our payroll is going to doom this team to mediocrity. I'm going to continue to cheer for Dlo to turn his career around and become a positive factor for this franchise, but I really hope Rosas can pull a rabbit out of his hat and find a way to move on.


Thanks for the compliment.

I presented a simple reality about Russell that he has value because of his ability on the offensive end. You wanting to balance that out is fine. Note that I mentioned he is getting paid a lot of money...

To me the question with Russell is whether he can improve his game. I still think with the right situation and coaching he cane become a much better basketball player. The last 2 seasons he has played for 3 different coaches. I think there is a chance his offense can become unlocked especially as a playmaker for others. I think he can be a more judicious scorer as well. Defensively there are other scoring guards that got to a place where they didn't suck on that end. To me I think if he can stay healthy Russell COULD improve from where he is right now. A lot of that is on him but I also think some of that is on the Wolves and the coaching staff. There is also a chance he is what he is now, just a flawed offensive player that only helps so much while hurting the defense. Some do not believe Russell will get better. I think there is a chance he can but I'm also not banking on it. I'm still concerned about him staying healthy and that was my biggest concern when we discussed bringing him to the roster and that concern has more data to back it up the last few months.

I do see positives in Russell and have since he was drafted. I also feel quite realistic about him too. Also again I'll mention that Russell isn't signed for a super long time it's 2 more years. If he really does suck (he doesn't but he is overpaid) then we are not far away from being rid of him one way or another.
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kekgeek
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by kekgeek »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:Why is everyone bringing up all these negative stats about Dlo. But when Dlo and Kat play together they are 10-7. Why does that not matter. The most important stat in basketball is the W column and if I am not mistaken 10-7 is very solid and is a good enough for the 5 seed.

Why does winning not matter. Wolves have only won this year when Dlo and Kat have played together. Why does that not matter. Why do we want to break up legit the only thing that has been successful this year. We are the worst team in the NBA when those 2 don't play together. So lets break it up. That seems really smart.


I think Ant and McDaniels have something to do with that 10-7 record. Without them we are not 10-7 over that stretch. And quite frankly, we've won some games in spite of DLO. He hasn't been good a lot of nights.


That is just not true. I know you do not like Dlo, I get it you don't think we can win with him. I get it I really do. We are 7-4 in clutch games since Dlo has been back. Dlo is leading our team in clutch scoring on 50/36/100 splits. Hey Ant is doing great when the game is on the line he is shooting a solid 25% and has more turnovers then asts. LETS GO!!!! ANT TIME. HE MIGHT BE THE GREATEST CLUTCH PLAYER EVER. HE IS CARRYING DLO. Also Dlo is 2nd on the Wolves in +/- in clutch time this season for players who have played in over 20 games with clutch situations only behind Rubio (rubio, Dlo, Kat, Ant, Mcdaniels and Beasley have played over 20 games in the clutch)

*I like Ant I really do but he has not been good down the stretch in games since players have came back. I think he will for sure get their but in those situations he has not been good. I like Mcdaniels also as you know but at the end he is one of the supporting pieces, I think he can be elite at that though.

Settle down Kek. Stop cherry picking stats that support your narrative only. Look at some of the shooting nights DLO has had since he came back. Obviously they aren't all bad, but he's had a few clunkers. I think narrowing down the reason for our 10-7 record to just KAT and DLO playing together is really a stretch. I'll give you that it's one factor, but it's kind of narrow to look at it as A + B = C.


I'm not cherry picking stats. If someone who didn't watch a single game all season read this board you would think Dlo is the worst player in the NBA and should be cut immediately.

Since coming back he is averaging 18.6/6 asts/2.3 rebs. On 44.8/37.3/81 splits. The Wolves are 10-7 when he and Kat play together 8-5 since returning. Dlo is apart of the best statistical lineup the Wolves have this year what is that bench group of Dlo/Jmac/Hernangomez/Vandy/Naz. That group is outscoring opponents by 18.6 pts per 100 possessions. Our starting lineup is outscoring opponents by .2 pts per 100 possessions. If you make the simple flip of inserting Dlo in for Rubio the Wolves are outscoring opponents by 10 pts per 100 possessions. That is a 9.8 pts per 100 possessions difference just with the simple switch of Dlo in for Rubio. How do you explain that, I think it has to do with so much more spacing on the floor allowing Ant to attack and creating more catch and shoot opportunities for Mcdaniels.

All that with the fact Dlo has been fantastic in clutch situations this year (yes he was absolutely shit on Saturday) and the Wolves are 10-7 when our max players play together and 10-38 when they don't. I'm going to put stock in that sorry. I am.

Obviously improvements can be made by Dlo and upgrading that positon is a scenario that is possible. I just think it's silly to want to dump Dlo when statistically and record wise their is nothing to suggest it can't work at this moment.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Lipoli390 »

See FNG's post on DLO. That post provides, in my view, the most comprehensive and balanced statistical analysis of DLO. If a defensive stalwart like Joel Embiid was our other max player, then I'd have a different take on DLO as part of this team. But two defensively challenged max players as the cornerstones of this team doesn't bode well. KAT has improved his defensive this season. If DLO can significantly improve on the defensive end and reduce his turnovers, then I can see this team becoming a contender with him and KAT as our cornerstones. But thus far DLO hasn't shown any sign of improvement in those two areas.

DLO is certainly an upgrade over Wiggins and I can see this team making the playoffs next season with the current roster if KAT and DLO remain healthy. But my bottom line when it comes to DLO is that we gave up to much to get him and we're paying him too much for what he provides. If I could move DLO for good return value I would do it. Even DLO's biggest proponents on this Board would probably concede we wouldn't get a lot in return for him. That alone, tells us a lot about DLO.
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Shumway
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Shumway »

kekgeek1 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:Why is everyone bringing up all these negative stats about Dlo. But when Dlo and Kat play together they are 10-7. Why does that not matter. The most important stat in basketball is the W column and if I am not mistaken 10-7 is very solid and is a good enough for the 5 seed.

Why does winning not matter. Wolves have only won this year when Dlo and Kat have played together. Why does that not matter. Why do we want to break up legit the only thing that has been successful this year. We are the worst team in the NBA when those 2 don't play together. So lets break it up. That seems really smart.


I think Ant and McDaniels have something to do with that 10-7 record. Without them we are not 10-7 over that stretch. And quite frankly, we've won some games in spite of DLO. He hasn't been good a lot of nights.


That is just not true. I know you do not like Dlo, I get it you don't think we can win with him. I get it I really do. We are 7-4 in clutch games since Dlo has been back. Dlo is leading our team in clutch scoring on 50/36/100 splits. Hey Ant is doing great when the game is on the line he is shooting a solid 25% and has more turnovers then asts. LETS GO!!!! ANT TIME. HE MIGHT BE THE GREATEST CLUTCH PLAYER EVER. HE IS CARRYING DLO. Also Dlo is 2nd on the Wolves in +/- in clutch time this season for players who have played in over 20 games with clutch situations only behind Rubio (rubio, Dlo, Kat, Ant, Mcdaniels and Beasley have played over 20 games in the clutch)

*I like Ant I really do but he has not been good down the stretch in games since players have came back. I think he will for sure get their but in those situations he has not been good. I like Mcdaniels also as you know but at the end he is one of the supporting pieces, I think he can be elite at that though.


I think this is a really good argument Kek. I've predominantly been of the view that Ant's improvement, McDaniels and improved coaching was the reason for the improved results and that D-Lo's return was just noise. But you might be onto something that D-Lo has added an ingredient that has genuinely contributed to the winning that Ant couldn't have provided himself. We know that D-Lo is a volume scorer and shot creator in the clutch. That has potentially been that final (and vital) ingredient to start putting some wins together.

Of course we can argue about whether that is worth his salary, but it at least initially suggests some genuine positive value that we may have been too quick to dismiss.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

Yeah, much respect for Kek's spirited defense of DLO. The numbers don't lie and Kek is backing his arguments up with sound data. He's not spinning a narrative and cherry-picking stats.

Having said that, this is a relatively short stretch of games in the big scheme of things. Let's see how the Wolves finish the year and how these guys look through the first 20 or 25 games of next season, as I'm assuming KAT and DLO will be back next season for sure.

I'm not convinced this is a playoff-caliber roster in the West yet, but I'm also pretty sure some of the recent good play is tangible improvement and a step forward. It still feels like a team whose ceiling is 7th or 8th seed at best heading into next season.
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thedoper
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by thedoper »

Q12543 wrote:Yeah, much respect for Kek's spirited defense of DLO. The numbers don't lie and Kek is backing his arguments up with sound data. He's not spinning a narrative and cherry-picking stats.

Having said that, this is a relatively short stretch of games in the big scheme of things. Let's see how the Wolves finish the year and how these guys look through the first 20 or 25 games of next season, as I'm assuming KAT and DLO will be back next season for sure.

I'm not convinced this is a playoff-caliber roster in the West yet, but I'm also pretty sure some of the recent good play is tangible improvement and a step forward. It still feels like a team whose ceiling is 7th or 8th seed at best heading into next season.


I think trepidation is fair. We are a net negative point differential since Dlo has returned in spite of our winning record. This isn't sustainable as a winning strategy. On the flip side, the team has played better since his return and we get more balance on our roster with him and Kat on the team. I don't know if this is a playoff team without Ant and McDaniels making huge leaps forward in terms of consistency. But I think Rosas has quelled the fires for a bit with the team playing better and has to a certain extant shown his ideal vision of an offensive team with Dlo and Kat on it.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

Q12543 wrote:Yeah, much respect for Kek's spirited defense of DLO. The numbers don't lie and Kek is backing his arguments up with sound data. He's not spinning a narrative and cherry-picking stats.

Having said that, this is a relatively short stretch of games in the big scheme of things. Let's see how the Wolves finish the year and how these guys look through the first 20 or 25 games of next season, as I'm assuming KAT and DLO will be back next season for sure.
.
I'm not convinced this is a playoff-caliber roster in the West yet, but I'm also pretty sure some of the recent good play is tangible improvement and a step forward. It still feels like a team whose ceiling is 7th or 8th seed at best heading into next season.

Okay, fair enough. I won't spin anything either. Just facts. The Wolves have won 2 of their last 3 games. In those games, DLO is shooting 16-50 from the floor and 3-25 from 3 point range. I could go back further, but time doesn't allow it today. Every time we win a game, Kek reminds us of the team's record with KAT and DLO on the court. When we lose we don't hear about that so much. But now I understand that when we win it's simply because KAT and DLO played together. Nothing else matters. Okay, I'm on board now.
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kekgeek
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by kekgeek »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, much respect for Kek's spirited defense of DLO. The numbers don't lie and Kek is backing his arguments up with sound data. He's not spinning a narrative and cherry-picking stats.

Having said that, this is a relatively short stretch of games in the big scheme of things. Let's see how the Wolves finish the year and how these guys look through the first 20 or 25 games of next season, as I'm assuming KAT and DLO will be back next season for sure.
.
I'm not convinced this is a playoff-caliber roster in the West yet, but I'm also pretty sure some of the recent good play is tangible improvement and a step forward. It still feels like a team whose ceiling is 7th or 8th seed at best heading into next season.

Okay, fair enough. I won't spin anything either. Just facts. The Wolves have won 2 of their last 3 games. In those games, DLO is shooting 16-50 from the floor and 3-25 from 3 point range. I could go back further, but time doesn't allow it today. Every time we win a game, Kek reminds us of the team's record with KAT and DLO on the court. When we lose we don't hear about that so much. But now I understand that when we win it's simply because KAT and DLO played together. Nothing else matters. Okay, I'm on board now.


In no way do i think Dlo is the sole contributing factor to wins. Think it's a team effort for sure. I do think he is a big part to it though and taking him out the Wolves would not be have won 5 of their last 7 (they should be on a 7 game win streak and them not is partly because of Dlo).

Also yes I'm going to point out when the Wolves win when Dlo and Kat play together. Rosas made a big trade last year to have our core be Dlo and Kat and now add Ant and probably McDaniels to that core. So yes in a year where the Wolves have not been good. I'm going to look at the positives of when the 2 guys rosas wants to build around are are playing they are winning at a pretty darn good rate. I'm going to be excited about that. When you take with Dlo or Kat out of the lineup the Wolves are only winning 1 in every 4.5 games. So the mesh of Dlo and Kat with the roster has been successful.

Now Q is right sample size is still decently small but after tonight Dlo and Kat together will have played 18 games together meaning a quarter of a 72 game season. So the record is getting closer to legit then small sample size blip.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: Keepers for Next Season

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

kekgeek1 wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, much respect for Kek's spirited defense of DLO. The numbers don't lie and Kek is backing his arguments up with sound data. He's not spinning a narrative and cherry-picking stats.

Having said that, this is a relatively short stretch of games in the big scheme of things. Let's see how the Wolves finish the year and how these guys look through the first 20 or 25 games of next season, as I'm assuming KAT and DLO will be back next season for sure.
.
I'm not convinced this is a playoff-caliber roster in the West yet, but I'm also pretty sure some of the recent good play is tangible improvement and a step forward. It still feels like a team whose ceiling is 7th or 8th seed at best heading into next season.

Okay, fair enough. I won't spin anything either. Just facts. The Wolves have won 2 of their last 3 games. In those games, DLO is shooting 16-50 from the floor and 3-25 from 3 point range. I could go back further, but time doesn't allow it today. Every time we win a game, Kek reminds us of the team's record with KAT and DLO on the court. When we lose we don't hear about that so much. But now I understand that when we win it's simply because KAT and DLO played together. Nothing else matters. Okay, I'm on board now.


In no way do i think Dlo is the sole contributing factor to wins. Think it's a team effort for sure. I do think he is a big part to it though and taking him out the Wolves would not be have won 5 of their last 7 (they should be on a 7 game win streak and them not is partly because of Dlo).

Also yes I'm going to point out when the Wolves win when Dlo and Kat play together. Rosas made a big trade last year to have our core be Dlo and Kat and now add Ant and probably McDaniels to that core. So yes in a year where the Wolves have not been good. I'm going to look at the positives of when the 2 guys rosas wants to build around are are playing they are winning at a pretty darn good rate. I'm going to be excited about that. When you take with Dlo or Kat out of the lineup the Wolves are only winning 1 in every 4.5 games. So the mesh of Dlo and Kat with the roster has been successful.

Now Q is right sample size is still decently small but after tonight Dlo and Kat together will have played 18 games together meaning a quarter of a 72 game season. So the record is getting closer to legit then small sample size blip.

I'll just remind you of a couple things. Please don't take this wrong, you are one of my favorite guys. First, availability is a real attribute. They haven't played many games together because they haven't been durable. That's all part of being a good player. And durability issues tend to repeat themselves. And secondly, the general attitude of this board at the time of the trade was that this was going to be a complete game changer for us. We wouldn't just make the playoffs, we would be looking at home court in the first round. And finally, the end of the NBA season is a joke. Players are sitting out because they feel like it or because any number of teams are trying to lose. Drawing conclusions from games played right now is subject to massive error. Remember last season when the board made a big deal about how Culver played at the end? As a fan of the NBA, and especially the Wolves, you should know games next November are what really are going to tell the story. Just like they did this year.
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