Minnesota Sports Forum

Jerry Zgoda @JerryZgoda
47m
Thibs on a forthcoming contract extension for Wiggins: "We're working on it right now."

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Shumway wrote:I just want to clarify something with people about Wiggins. We talk about his competitive drive and we see conflicting reports. As Lip has noted above, both Flip and Thibs deny that he has issues with his drive.

So I think there's a slight difference in what people talk about when discussing drive or motor. I believe he has the desire to work hard. I believe he practises hard. I believe he works hard in the offseason to improve his game. I believe he puts in the hours necessary to improve. What he seems to lack is a more instinctive Bulldog in the way he plays. The instaneous decision to dive for a ball or wait for it to come to him.

On the one hand, the work ethic should allow him to continue to develop and improve. On the other hand, an instinctive mongrel can be difficult to change or train. It may develop with maturity. And we know that conscious focus on things can become stored as instinctive behaviours.

Is that consistent with what others mean when they talk about motor or competitive drive in Wiggins?

I think you nailed it, Shumway.

Yep

Yup, that is absolutely how I have always viewed Wiggins. This isn't an issue of a guy not putting in the time in the gym, getting up reps, wanting to play well, etc. But when in the heat of battle, he often lacks that extra gear or doggedness that so many of "the greats" have possessed. And we can pooh-pooh the stats, but sorry, when a guy like him literally has taken one charge in his entire career....I mean, really!? God made nearly the perfect athlete for making chase down blocks in Andrew Wiggins, yet I've never seen him do it. Hell, Brandon Rush made two or three chase down blocks last year alone, and he's a 30-something year old playing on bad knees.....

It's just a lack of that 5th or 6th gear or dogged instinct that comes naturally for some guys - he doesn't have it.

Good description Shumway. To me there are two related issues you raise that have long been a concern with Wiggins: 1) lack of quick decision making, and 2) failure to play with personality/pride, like a "bulldog" as you put it.

Quick Decision Making
It's not that he's lazy, it's that he doesn't have quick decision-making instincts when it comes to loose-ball situations, so he regularly ball watches rather than making instinctive hustle plays. He's not one of these guys who thinks they're too good to hustle. It's just that he literally doesn't seem to be able to make the decision to hustle quick enough.

What's so frustrating is that he has great scoring instincts. Give him the ball and he often finds a way to score. And he has crazy fast quick-twitch muscles, so physically, he's certainly capable of being a great all-around hustle player who "does shit" as we like to say. But for some reason, he just can't seem to make quick decisions as a passer, defender, rebounder, etc. I think that helps explain why his stats are so meagre in other categories. This might sound harsh, but sometimes it feels like he has the mentality of a fan watching the game unless he has the ball and is trying to score.

Failure to Play with Personality/Pride
I like the way you describe the lack of "bulldog" in Wiggins, since bulldogs are generally friendly but known to fight ferociously when they feel threatened. That ability to "switch it on" when you step on the court is hard to measure, but I think it's really crucial. The best players, and even some average players who became good through force of will, have always shown strong competitive personalities on the court, though sometimes in different ways. Thinking back, MJ wanted to prove he was the best who ever played, Bird hated to lose more than anything, Lambieer was a thug, Mutombo taunted, KG was a crazy shit-talker, Artest and Rodman were just plain crazy, Kobe wanted to personally embarrass whoever guarded him, Nash was cerebral and level-headed but ultra-competitive. The same is true of the best players today, Westbrook, CP3, LeBron, Durant. Maybe the only great player who I can think of who didn't have much personality on the court was Tim Duncan, and he was basically the textbook perfect PF who had great quick decision-making skills.

I say this because I don't see much personality or competitive instincts from Wiggins. He basically has the same facial expressions, the same body language, the same playing style no matter what. A dude could burn him for a bucket three times in a row and there's no noticeable increase in his defensive intensity. He'll get the ball stolen from him and won't chase the dude down any harder than if it came off a rebound. The game could be on the line in the last minute of the game and he won't dive for a 50-50 ball any more often than he would otherwise (which is unfortunately not very often to begin with). There's no pride there. It's like it's not personal for him. Like he's just a dude doing his job. I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't think he's lazy. I just think he has a pretty empty personality in terms of how he plays on the court.

Conclusion
I'm less optimistic that this kind of quick-decision making can be learned, and I really question whether his personality can develop more. These are typically not the sort of things guys learn after 20. I think Flip's claim that Andrew could be a top 10 talent would be true IF he had those two qualities. But he doesn't have them, and I don't expect him to develop them. That's why I think the statistical comparisons between Wiggins and Butler are misleading. As a former Chicagoan, I watched the Bulls a lot, and it was clear early on, even when he wasn't getting many minutes and still developing his skills as a player, that Butler always had both quick-decision hustle instincts and a strong personality. Arguably, these help explain why he has improved almost every year, blooming well after a some fans might have bailed on him. The question I have is this: can a player like Wiggins who doesn't really have those two skills (quick thinking and personality/pride/competitiveness) really improve as much? His non-scoring stats suggest not.

So despite his really impressive scoring and regardless of what we do in terms of his extension, Wiggins' 1) lack of quick decision making outside of scoring and 2) his lack of an ability to play with pride/personality might make him a fundamentally flawed player who we may want to look to trade at some point before his value goes down too far.

I'm not going to offer my thoughts about Wig's drawbacks, because a few of you have captured them in this thread quite eloquently. Cool may not agree with the assessment of most of us, but these shortcomings that you guys have cited hold Wig back from being a truly special player, and they are not the kind of things that change in a player as he develops.

That said, I am pleased with the news that Thibs is working on an extension for Wig that reportedly will pay him $150 million...I think he's worth it. Despite playing next to two players who are going to score, I think Wig's offensive arsenal will continue to improve and he will be a 25 PPG player for many years. And I think his defense will also continue to improve and he will be a plus defender for many years. And those two qualities easily add up to a max contract. He's never going to give the fiery locker room speech, or regularly dive into piles for loose balls, or regularly take charges...it's just not part of his DNA. But he will still be worth his contract.

Having said all that, I don't know how long Wig will be a T-Wolf...and as I said before, his future oddly has a lot to do with how well Tyus Jones plays the next couple years. How so? The Wolves are not going to pay max contracts to the Big 3 along with Teague's near-$20 million contract in 2019-20...given any normal contracts for the other 11 players on the roster, the lux tax would be absurd. So either Wig or Teague will be gone (I think we all agree Butler and KAT are going nowhere). My wish is that Tyus Jones establishes himself as at least an average NBA PG, allowing Thibs to install him as the starter and trade Teague. But if that doesn't happen, I think the Wolves will have to trade Wig before the 2019-20 season. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. Go Tyus!

SameOldDrew wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Shumway wrote:I just want to clarify something with people about Wiggins. We talk about his competitive drive and we see conflicting reports. As Lip has noted above, both Flip and Thibs deny that he has issues with his drive.

So I think there's a slight difference in what people talk about when discussing drive or motor. I believe he has the desire to work hard. I believe he practises hard. I believe he works hard in the offseason to improve his game. I believe he puts in the hours necessary to improve. What he seems to lack is a more instinctive Bulldog in the way he plays. The instaneous decision to dive for a ball or wait for it to come to him.

On the one hand, the work ethic should allow him to continue to develop and improve. On the other hand, an instinctive mongrel can be difficult to change or train. It may develop with maturity. And we know that conscious focus on things can become stored as instinctive behaviours.

Is that consistent with what others mean when they talk about motor or competitive drive in Wiggins?

I think you nailed it, Shumway.

Yep

Yup, that is absolutely how I have always viewed Wiggins. This isn't an issue of a guy not putting in the time in the gym, getting up reps, wanting to play well, etc. But when in the heat of battle, he often lacks that extra gear or doggedness that so many of "the greats" have possessed. And we can pooh-pooh the stats, but sorry, when a guy like him literally has taken one charge in his entire career....I mean, really!? God made nearly the perfect athlete for making chase down blocks in Andrew Wiggins, yet I've never seen him do it. Hell, Brandon Rush made two or three chase down blocks last year alone, and he's a 30-something year old playing on bad knees.....

It's just a lack of that 5th or 6th gear or dogged instinct that comes naturally for some guys - he doesn't have it.

Good description Shumway. To me there are two related issues you raise that have long been a concern with Wiggins: 1) lack of quick decision making, and 2) failure to play with personality/pride, like a "bulldog" as you put it.

Quick Decision Making
It's not that he's lazy, it's that he doesn't have quick decision-making instincts when it comes to loose-ball situations, so he regularly ball watches rather than making instinctive hustle plays. He's not one of these guys who thinks they're too good to hustle. It's just that he literally doesn't seem to be able to make the decision to hustle quick enough.

What's so frustrating is that he has great scoring instincts. Give him the ball and he often finds a way to score. And he has crazy fast quick-twitch muscles, so physically, he's certainly capable of being a great all-around hustle player who "does shit" as we like to say. But for some reason, he just can't seem to make quick decisions as a passer, defender, rebounder, etc. I think that helps explain why his stats are so meagre in other categories. This might sound harsh, but sometimes it feels like he has the mentality of a fan watching the game unless he has the ball and is trying to score.

Failure to Play with Personality/Pride
I like the way you describe the lack of "bulldog" in Wiggins, since bulldogs are generally friendly but known to fight ferociously when they feel threatened. That ability to "switch it on" when you step on the court is hard to measure, but I think it's really crucial. The best players, and even some average players who became good through force of will, have always shown strong competitive personalities on the court, though sometimes in different ways. Thinking back, MJ wanted to prove he was the best who ever played, Bird hated to lose more than anything, Lambieer was a thug, Mutombo taunted, KG was a crazy shit-talker, Artest and Rodman were just plain crazy, Kobe wanted to personally embarrass whoever guarded him, Nash was cerebral and level-headed but ultra-competitive. The same is true of the best players today, Westbrook, CP3, LeBron, Durant. Maybe the only great player who I can think of who didn't have much personality on the court was Tim Duncan, and he was basically the textbook perfect PF who had great quick decision-making skills.

I say this because I don't see much personality from Wiggins. He basically has the same facial expressions, the same body language, the same playing style no matter what. A dude could burn him defensively three times in a row and there's no noticeable increase in his defensive intensity. The game could be on the line in the last minute of the game and he won't dive for a 50-50 ball any harder than he would otherwise. There's no pride there. It's like it's not personal for him. Like he's just a dude doing his job. I don't think he's a bad guy. I don't think he's lazy. I just think he has a pretty empty personality in terms of how he plays on the court.


Conclusion
I'm less optimistic that this kind of quick-decision making can be learned, and I really question whether his personality can develop more. These are typically not the sort of things guys learn after 20. I think Flip's claim that Andrew could be a top 10 talent would be true IF he had those two qualities. But he doesn't have them, and I don't expect him to develop them. That's why I think the statistical comparisons between Wiggins and Butler are misleading. As a former Chicagoan, I watched the Bulls a lot, and it was clear early on, even when he wasn't getting many minutes and still developing his skills as a player, that Butler always had both quick-decision hustle instincts and a strong personality. Arguably, these help explain why he has improved almost every year, blooming well after a some fans might have bailed on him. The question I have is this: can a player like Wiggins who doesn't really have those two skills (quick thinking and personality/pride) really improve as much? His non-scoring stats suggest not.

So despite his really impressive scoring and regardless of what we do in terms of his extension, Wiggins' 1) lack of quick decision making outside of scoring and 2) his lack of an ability to play with pride/personality might make him a fundamentally flawed player who we may want to look to trade at some point before his value goes down too far.

That's an interesting take and there is probably some truth there. I was thinking more about Wiggins yesterday.

Yesterday's i was listing to Bill Simmons podcast with a recent chat with Butler at his house. It hit me even more that Butler is a guy that just balled out. I think we would all agree though he studies and puts in the work he considers this his job. He said he doesn't watch basketball in his down time because that's his job. So Butler plays his butt off just goes out and plays but also does all the things you need to do to prepare.

To me Wiggins issue isn't lack of of quick decision making as much as he thinks and calculates way too much. I always thought Wiggins and Lavine were total opposites in that lavine just played but needed to learn to play the game (His BBIQ was pretty bad) and Wiggins needs to just cut loose and play. Lavine has made strides to be a more instinctive and refined offensive player and puts forth more effort but he still didn't really give you a whole lot in the other areas but his skills are terrific offensively.

I think if Wiggins is surrounded with a guy like Butler and even Taj that ball out AND are very intellligent about the game that is going to help him a great deal. I also think the more that games matter the more he is going to lock in. Butler said that he think Wiggins life offensively is going to get easier with the additions in the offseason. He certainly won't always be a top option now.

I personally think Wiggins and Leonard are a good comp as far as personality overall. Yeah I know Leonard does all the stuff but their first years in the league are basic opposites what situation the were in and asked to do. Leonard was asked to be a 3 and D guy and played for a HOF coach with HOF players that had been there for years. Wiggins has played for 3 different coaches 1 part time HOF player for a year and asked to be a top scorer on a team from the get go. He has played with top defenders for about a half of a season and a defensive coach for 1 season. Pop said Leonard's rookie year he saw Leonard as a future star. Who say him developing this offensive game he has to put him into top 10 NBA player consideration? Wiggins started with his offensive game and needs to build his defensive game game and do the other things as well. All of his coaches have been really high on him I have a hard time thinking that they didn't think he could become something more of an all around player. There is absolutely reason for skeptism about that but I also think it's reasonable to still have hope for him to do more espcially defensively. This year he will be surrounded by some players that will likely help in his development. Robson said on his podcast that's Wiggins is sort of the x-factor for this team going forward. If he takes steps and becomes an All-star this team could really become a legit contender. If he doesn't then that lowers the trajectory and he could be traded.

I still believe in Wiggins. I've seen a lot of crappy Wolves basketball players the last few years that were supposed to be good and weren't. Wiggins is waaaaaaaaaasay different than those guys. The guys is a legit talent and imo he is a guy that's going to be willing to play with other top scorers. His game needs to evolve to do that espcially his jump shot. I think he may turn into an absolute killer in the playoffs which would make the Wolves very difficult to play against if they have him with Butler and Towns. I think this season we are going to see more from Wiggins than we have seen before but we will see.

TheFuture wrote:Like you said, super low probability. That QO would be what? Around 7 mil? When he'd be taking the risk of turning down 20+ mil per over at least 4 years. Super low probability may be an understatement.

KAT I would extend the year before. Wiggins? I'm not convinced. Has he really shown us enough already to be given the max simply because?

Good points, Future. I agree with you on KAT and Wiggins, but I come down on the side of extending Wiggins at the 5-year max before the season. It sounds like Thibs is intent on doing just that. Thibs is in complete control of player personnel decisions. So we're just going to have to trust him. He seems to have a lot of confidence in Wiggins.

longstrangetrip wrote:I'm not going to offer my thoughts about Wig's drawbacks, because a few of you have captured them in this thread quite eloquently. Cool may not agree with the assessment of most of us, but these shortcomings that you guys have cited hold Wig back from being a truly special player, and they are not the kind of things that change in a player as he develops.

That said, I am pleased with the news that Thibs is working on an extension for Wig that reportedly will pay him $150 million...I think he's worth it. Despite playing next to two players who are going to score, I think Wig's offensive arsenal will continue to improve and he will be a 25 PPG player for many years. And I think his defense will also continue to improve and he will be a plus defender for many years. And those two qualities easily add up to a max contract. He's never going to give the fiery locker room speech, or regularly dive into piles for loose balls, or regularly take charges...it's just not part of his DNA. But he will still be worth his contract.

Having said all that, I don't know how long Wig will be a T-Wolf...and as I said before, his future oddly has a lot to do with how well Tyus Jones plays the next couple years. How so? The Wolves are not going to pay max contracts to the Big 3 along with Teague's near-$20 million contract in 2019-20...given any normal contracts for the other 11 players on the roster, the lux tax would be absurd. So either Wig or Teague will be gone (I think we all agree Butler and KAT are going nowhere). My wish is that Tyus Jones establishes himself as at least an average NBA PG, allowing Thibs to install him as the starter and trade Teague. But if that doesn't happen, I think the Wolves will have to trade Wig before the 2019-20 season. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. Go Tyus!

I think Drew's analysis of Wiggins was spot on. But your post captures my thinking on what the Wolves should do -- sign Wiggins to the 5-year extension now and consider trading him before the 2019-20 season, depending on his development and where we're at as a team.

The great thing about Wiggins is that his value won't decrease over time...regardless of his future skill expansion. The NBA has always glorified scoring players while taking much less notice of defensive and balanced players. So while his trade value could certainly grow with an increased skillset....I don't see a decline in value. The dude will always put up points, which as stated, will always be of huge value on the open market.

Hicks123 wrote:The great thing about Wiggins is that his value won't decrease over time...regardless of his future skill expansion. The NBA has always glorified scoring players while taking much less notice of defensive and balanced players. So while his trade value could certainly grow with an increased skillset....I don't see a decline in value. The dude will always put up points, which as stated, will always be of huge value on the open market.

Probably. But I don't know if we've had THIS much data/stats on the importance of all those other things as we do now. And if anything, it looks to be expanding in importance.

That being said... yes... the extension is a no-brainer. The team/franchise will go only as far as KAT and Wiggins takes it. If he doesn't turn that corner and make it as an elite player... it doesn't really matter if the team is paying him $2M or $30M... they'll be in a state of flux staring at more lottery balls.

Wiggins and KAT are the decade long building blocks. They aren't going anywhere if you can keep them. Butler/Wiggins/Towns are the building blocks for the duration of Butler's next deal. Everyone else is expendable and can be replaced. You don't trade Wiggins so you can keep Teague. You can't complain that this offseason was full of short-sighted moves and then argue we should trade Wiggins at any point. He's 22. He's still 4 years away from hitting his prime. I just don't get the Wiggins attitude on most of this board. He's the premier iron man in the league behind Lebron at this point and he's already a good scorer at 22 in a league run by older, more experienced players. What's he gonna look like when he becomes that older more experienced player? A virtually unstoppable offensive force? He's really good for a 22 year old. Sorry he's not Durant or other top 3 players when they were 22, but his floor right now is a damn good #2 option which fits perfectly with Towns who is setup to be a #1 option.

khans2k5 wrote:Wiggins and KAT are the decade long building blocks. They aren't going anywhere if you can keep them. Butler/Wiggins/Towns are the building blocks for the duration of Butler's next deal. Everyone else is expendable and can be replaced. You don't trade Wiggins so you can keep Teague. You can't complain that this offseason was full of short-sighted moves and then argue we should trade Wiggins at any point. He's 22. He's still 4 years away from hitting his prime. I just don't get the Wiggins attitude on most of this board. He's the premier iron man in the league behind Lebron at this point and he's already a good scorer at 22 in a league run by older, more experienced players. What's he gonna look like when he becomes that older more experienced player? A virtually unstoppable offensive force? He's really good for a 22 year old. Sorry he's not Durant or other top 3 players when they were 22, but his floor right now is a damn good #2 option which fits perfectly with Towns who is setup to be a #1 option.

Wait, did I write this? :d