Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Really not a bad showing by the Wolves tonight. I though Taj, Rose, Wig, Tyus, and Tolliver were all good. Taj was really good. But coming off a back to back without Towns and giving the Bucks all they can handle. Not a whole lot to be disappointed about.

100% the best or 2nd best team in the NBA clamped down in the 4th. It happens, really happy with the effort, good fight

. Agree, they played competive tonight. Fun game.

Plus the Wolves put up 32/38/39 in the first 3 quarter WITHOUT Towns against one of the best defensive teams in the league. That's kinda impressive. They were really moving the ball around. I also think that even though both teams were scoring it wasn't bad defense. Teams were making shots and making plays. Just a fun game to watch.

Looking at the box score...Saric played better than the stat line and Wiggins didn't play as good as the line he had but he was not terrible overall.

KBD is showing some game and tonight it was against one of the best teams in the league even if it was against their bench. That one block he had was pretty sweet after he got beat easily.

I agree with you that Saric played better than his stat line while Wiggins played worse. Good observation. But if Saric would have hit those wide open shots he missed, the Wolves might have won the game. His shooting inconsistency is very frustrating. But I did like the way he played overall last night and I generally like his game. I just wonder if he'll ever be a reliable consistent shooter. That's the key to him becoming a very good player.

Lip lets look at things related to Saric in a few ways and some numbers.

Tolliver and Saric combied to shoot 6-12 from 3. You take that every night right? There is going to be some variance.

Yes Saric missed shots tonight but he is still shooting a ridiculous 58.8% from 3 this month and 40% overall. Yes there are ups and downs BUT the real key is utilizing Saric so you are getting more out of him than just hoping he makes his shots. It felt like Saric had more than 3 assists in this game and he is clearly getting involved more which is a good thing. I think one of the biggest black marks on Ryan until recently was Saric continued to struggle. That seems to have turned around which so some extent was likely to happen regardless but it seems Saric is being empowered more.

Something else (unrelated to Saric) I was thinking during this game was It feels like even though Ryan's hand has been forced by injuries I don't think players will be as shy about coming to the Wolves becasue they didn't get opportunities. I defended Thibs alot but that was something I think was at least somewhat of a problem. In addition it seemed like Thibs would get a guy here and then not utilize him like Tolliver. We will see what happened when (hopefully) this team gets healthy and what he does with a bunch of guys that at this point clearly have earned a chance to play (which actually includes Dieng). It seems Ryan is gonna find a way to get various guys in the game maybe not every game but he doesn't seem afraid to do something different. Back to Tolliver...on a flip side of the trade coin...watching that last game you wonder if there were some teams that made a mistake in not trying harder to get him. Maybe they were hoping he would be a buyout guy...which that deadline (must be waived by March 1 right?) is coming fast.

Monster - I don't disagree with anything you wrote about Saric. But I'm still disappointed in his inconsistency as a shooter game to game. Last night was a reminder of how cold he can get shooting the ball for an entire game. That said, no doubt his shooting AND overall play have improved under Ryan. I remained especially intrigued by Taj Gibson's comments the other night, referring to Saric having a lot of talent and saying Saric is a guy who can score 40 points. It's great that we now have a head coach giving Saric an opportunity to shine and develop.

The development of Saric, Okogie and KBD will be so important to this franchise. In spite of their flaws, I still see all three having the potential to be very good to great players. So much of it is having a head coach who believes in you and gives you a chance to play, including a chance to play through mistakes and difficulties. I'm impressed so far by how Ryan is handling our personnel.

I'm totally with you in thinking that players will be more willing to come here under Ryan than they were under Thibs. Part of it is, as you pointed out, seeing the Wolves as a team that will give you an opportunity to play. But another part of it ties back to what David Thorpe said in reference Thibodeau's reputation around the League as a guy who simply not fun to play for. What a shocker. :)

Regarding Tolliver, I think a lot of teams made a mistake not offering more for Tolliver. I'd say the same about Gibson and Rose. At this point there's no way I'd release any of our vets. I don't want teams around the League to continue thinking they can stiff arm us and then count on the Wolves eventually giving assets away. I know I've wanted the Wolves to play the young guys and "soft-tank" the rest of the season. But having failed to do any deals at the deadline, I'm thinking the Wolves longer term strategy should also include enticing some of our vets to stay longer term for decent contracts. Rose and Tolliver would probably be my top two picks to keep, but I like what we've seen from Deng and he should be very inexpensive to keep. I've actually like to keep Taj as a main backup for both Saric and KAT, but it's hard to justify keeping him with Gorgui on the roster at his salary. I'm really hoping Teague will opt out. He's the one vet who I have no interest in keeping, especially giving his salary.

What are you thoughts on keeping some or all of these vets?

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Really not a bad showing by the Wolves tonight. I though Taj, Rose, Wig, Tyus, and Tolliver were all good. Taj was really good. But coming off a back to back without Towns and giving the Bucks all they can handle. Not a whole lot to be disappointed about.

100% the best or 2nd best team in the NBA clamped down in the 4th. It happens, really happy with the effort, good fight

. Agree, they played competive tonight. Fun game.

Plus the Wolves put up 32/38/39 in the first 3 quarter WITHOUT Towns against one of the best defensive teams in the league. That's kinda impressive. They were really moving the ball around. I also think that even though both teams were scoring it wasn't bad defense. Teams were making shots and making plays. Just a fun game to watch.

Looking at the box score...Saric played better than the stat line and Wiggins didn't play as good as the line he had but he was not terrible overall.

KBD is showing some game and tonight it was against one of the best teams in the league even if it was against their bench. That one block he had was pretty sweet after he got beat easily.

I agree with you that Saric played better than his stat line while Wiggins played worse. Good observation. But if Saric would have hit those wide open shots he missed, the Wolves might have won the game. His shooting inconsistency is very frustrating. But I did like the way he played overall last night and I generally like his game. I just wonder if he'll ever be a reliable consistent shooter. That's the key to him becoming a very good player.

Lip lets look at things related to Saric in a few ways and some numbers.

Tolliver and Saric combied to shoot 6-12 from 3. You take that every night right? There is going to be some variance.

Yes Saric missed shots tonight but he is still shooting a ridiculous 58.8% from 3 this month and 40% overall. Yes there are ups and downs BUT the real key is utilizing Saric so you are getting more out of him than just hoping he makes his shots. It felt like Saric had more than 3 assists in this game and he is clearly getting involved more which is a good thing. I think one of the biggest black marks on Ryan until recently was Saric continued to struggle. That seems to have turned around which so some extent was likely to happen regardless but it seems Saric is being empowered more.

Something else (unrelated to Saric) I was thinking during this game was It feels like even though Ryan's hand has been forced by injuries I don't think players will be as shy about coming to the Wolves becasue they didn't get opportunities. I defended Thibs alot but that was something I think was at least somewhat of a problem. In addition it seemed like Thibs would get a guy here and then not utilize him like Tolliver. We will see what happened when (hopefully) this team gets healthy and what he does with a bunch of guys that at this point clearly have earned a chance to play (which actually includes Dieng). It seems Ryan is gonna find a way to get various guys in the game maybe not every game but he doesn't seem afraid to do something different. Back to Tolliver...on a flip side of the trade coin...watching that last game you wonder if there were some teams that made a mistake in not trying harder to get him. Maybe they were hoping he would be a buyout guy...which that deadline (must be waived by March 1 right?) is coming fast.

Monster - I don't disagree with anything you wrote about Saric. But I'm still disappointed in his inconsistency as a shooter game to game. Last night was a reminder of how cold he can get shooting the ball for an entire game. That said, no doubt his shooting AND overall play have improved under Ryan. I remained especially intrigued by Taj Gibson's comments the other night, referring to Saric having a lot of talent and saying Saric is a guy who can score 40 points. It's great that we now have a head coach giving Saric an opportunity to shine and develop.

The development of Saric, Okogie and KBD will be so important to this franchise. In spite of their flaws, I still see all three having the potential to be very good to great players. So much of it is having a head coach who believes in you and gives you a chance to play, including a chance to play through mistakes and difficulties. I'm impressed so far by how Ryan is handling our personnel.

I'm totally with you in thinking that players will be more willing to come here under Ryan than they were under Thibs. Part of it is, as you pointed out, seeing the Wolves as a team that will give you an opportunity to play. But another part of it ties back to what David Thorpe said in reference Thibodeau's reputation around the League as a guy who simply not fun to play for. What a shocker. :)

Regarding Tolliver, I think a lot of teams made a mistake not offering more for Tolliver. I'd say the same about Gibson and Rose. At this point there's no way I'd release any of our vets. I don't want teams around the League to continue thinking they can stiff arm us and then count on the Wolves eventually giving assets away. I know I've wanted the Wolves to play the young guys and "soft-tank" the rest of the season. But having failed to do any deals at the deadline, I'm thinking the Wolves longer term strategy should also include enticing some of our vets to stay longer term for decent contracts. Rose and Tolliver would probably be my top two picks to keep, but I like what we've seen from Deng and he should be very inexpensive to keep. I've actually like to keep Taj as a main backup for both Saric and KAT, but it's hard to justify keeping him with Gorgui on the roster at his salary. I'm really hoping Teague will opt out. He's the one vet who I have no interest in keeping, especially giving his salary.

What are you thoughts on keeping some or all of these vets?

Good stuff Lip.

Let's go back to what you said about Thorpe's comments. His last appearance on Wolfson's podcast he basically ripped the whole organization a new one (remember he didn't like Sam Mitchell) for how inept it's been for years. No plan, lack of development of players and again he mentioned lots of players actually like the Twins cities area. It's hard to argue that idea. Thibs angle was professional "the Magic was in the work" stuff. I do think Thibs made a real effort to be more of a human being but it wasn't enough. Like I have said a few times let's be a franchise that embraces the Minnesota nice to some extent and be a team that players want to play for. Ultimately I think the Rubio trade will pay off but as a person and what he tries to do in his life Rubio would have been great for that type of culture. Of course we need to have basketball savy also but It starts at the top. Even though Glen bumbles at times he likes being a relationship guy. I think most of the time it is a strength of his. Most people's best strengths tend to also be a key weakness.

As for the vets...let's just start with we can't keep them all. Rose might be the most valueable guy we could keep. The guy when healthy is just an absolute dynamo as a scorer. He plays hard and isn't inept on defense and he brings a certain star power which I think it's a positive and it's kind of strange to be saying that about a Wolf. I don't think it will be a bank breaking deal to keep him. To me Tolliver seemed like the logical guy to move on from. Where is he going to play? We have him a decent chunk of money last offseason and other teams were lurking. How much do you give a guy that's a 34 year old backup (although Tolliver doesn't seem to be slowing down). Taj...I'd love to keep him but it feels like he would end up taking away from another younger player (so would Tolliver). Deng...I may want back more than anyone outside of Rose. He is playing well. Meanwhile the 2nd most hated player on this board Teague...I see him playing with a different flair. I'm not exactly going to be sighing with relief when he opts into his 19 million (yes the money is a ton) but again I think he is a guy that may benefit from Ryan as much as anyone. I still think there is more value from Teague than we saw the last year and a half. He looks like he is playing more free flowing. More space with Saric out there will give him more room to do things. With Butler gone an aggressive Teague actually makes more sense IF the team actually plays in a way that utilizes players strengths more. Teague can be a part of that. Bayless? Maybe vet min I think he showed he can help a team off called on. I would hope we can have another younger guard if we bring back the same group we have already.

Back to the Wolves culture and yes I agree with you the Wolves should keep the vets unless they absolutely demand out which...Taj and Rose seem highly unlikely to do and I doubt Tolliver will either. One thing Thibs and Layden did here was they held strong on their positions at times and got what they wanted. Sometimes it was probably less than optimal how they did it but I liked they didn't just roll over. Really though like you said let's create a culture and environment that makes players want to stay and/or come here or....gasp even come back!

One thing I would really like to see this summer in FA is sign one project reclamation or maybe just claimation project. I look at Miami or the Blazers as teams that have gotten some younger/under utilized players and gotten a lot out of them. We need to at least try. Nik Stauskus keeps coming to mind but in the past I wanted to get Seth Curry. It would be nice to get a guy that can take and make 3's and at least handle the ball a little. I'd settle for the next Treveon Graham or Daris Miller. I'll admit we didn't see enough but I honestly think we and some other NBA teams missed the boat on James Nunnally being a solid bench player. He looked like he could play had plenty of physical tools and was good teammate.

Abe's late LATE DVR review...

- The Bucks want teams to shoot three pointers. They believe it's more important to protect the rim. They are last in the league in opponent makes and attempts (35 per game). The Wolves took fewer three pointers than normal... 26 vs. 28 on the season. Was that by design... or because even under Saunders, the Wolves don't value the three pointer and don't have the personnel to exploit it?

- Entertaining game. But I agree with the poster who wrote that it seemed like the Bucks were toying with the Wolves until the 4th. That's how the NBA works. As fans of shitty team after shitty team... we've seen this more than other fans.

- Bad Jeff Teague night. It's just so obvious. He should be benched the moment he refuses to take the first wide open 15 foot jump shot for the night. Teague has games where he starts hot and then fizzles... but it's incredibly rare for him to start passive and finish well. He was awful.

- IF the Lakers miss the playoffs, Luke Walton will be fired. But it should be Rob Pelinka (GM) for letting Brook Lopez walk in favor of guys like Javale McGee, D. Stephenson, et al. The guy is a great floor spacer + rim protector. It's so rare to have somebody who's good at both.

- We need to give the Saric + KAT pairing more time... but I'm not sold on the "he's definitely a top-notch starter." He's a negative defensively. He doesn't finish well. And he's only a good, not great shooter. I'm not giving up on him... I'm just not sold on him for being THE guy worthy of a long, lucrative extension. Yet.

- Just another reminder how much better the Bucks did with a solid young core than the Wolves did... or more accurately... how much better the Bucks young core has improved vs. the Wolves young core.

Remember when Jabari Parker was considered a critical part of the Bucks young core? It seems so so long ago...

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Abe's late LATE DVR review...

- The Bucks want teams to shoot three pointers. They believe it's more important to protect the rim. They are last in the league in opponent makes and attempts (35 per game). The Wolves took fewer three pointers than normal... 26 vs. 28 on the season. Was that by design... or because even under Saunders, the Wolves don't value the three pointer and don't have the personnel to exploit it?

- Entertaining game. But I agree with the poster who wrote that it seemed like the Bucks were toying with the Wolves until the 4th. That's how the NBA works. As fans of shitty team after shitty team... we've seen this more than other fans.

- Bad Jeff Teague night. It's just so obvious. He should be benched the moment he refuses to take the first wide open 15 foot jump shot for the night. Teague has games where he starts hot and then fizzles... but it's incredibly rare for him to start passive and finish well. He was awful.

- IF the Lakers miss the playoffs, Luke Walton will be fired. But it should be Rob Pelinka (GM) for letting Brook Lopez walk in favor of guys like Javale McGee, D. Stephenson, et al. The guy is a great floor spacer + rim protector. It's so rare to have somebody who's good at both.

- We need to give the Saric + KAT pairing more time... but I'm not sold on the "he's definitely a top-notch starter." He's a negative defensively. He doesn't finish well. And he's only a good, not great shooter. I'm not giving up on him... I'm just not sold on him for being THE guy worthy of a long, lucrative extension. Yet.

- Just another reminder how much better the Bucks did with a solid young core than the Wolves did... or more accurately... how much better the Bucks young core has improved vs. the Wolves young core.

Remember when Jabari Parker was considered a critical part of the Bucks young core? It seems so so long ago...

I always liked Middleton, but man, he has turned into a really dangerous volume 3 shooter that can make them right in your face. He didn't have that in his game previously, so he has definitely developed into an elite shooter.

On opponent 3 pointers, the Bucks are strategic on WHO is shooting the 3-pointer. They generally want it to come from opposing big men, so Lopez almost always plays drop coverage and concedes the 3 to the bigs he's guarding. That allows him to wall up and protect the paint while also getting bigs to shoot the 3 versus (theoretically) more dangerous wings and guards.