CoolBreeze44 wrote:
I really wish you would post more often SJM. Your takes are generally well grounded and realistic. We finally have a couple guys to build around and yet these trade Wiggins comments continue to pop up. I'm comforted to know he's not going to be traded regardless of having to endure the nonsense on this board. And no, Zach Lavine is not going to be the player that Andrew Wiggins is. I love Zach, but just stop. I mean, didn't the guy just average over 26 points the last 31 games of the season? That's Lebron territory folks. Don't we have bigger problems?
Thanks Cool, been too busy this last year, but am also really growing tired of the NBA officiating. I can't even find the motivation to watch a game that the wolves aren't playing in. It seems like the NBA is competing with Professional Wrestling. The Wolves seem to be more interested in their logo than improving the team. I am also extremely unhappy with the Thibs dual role thing.
We're talking about the NBA... and NBA history. I just don't see how Timmy McBuckets role at Peoria Prep or for Leo's Pizza Emporium in the Fridley Men's League has anything to do with that.
And I don't know if anybody is actively suggesting that Wiggins is traded. So let's curb that immediately before assumptions derail another thread. The fact is that Wiggins is in Year 4. He's shown flashes. But he's also shown flaws. There's at least a possibility that all of those flaws won't be fixed... just like there's a possibility that his promise will be realized.
As with any trade... it's not an easy thing to improve value. You have to give something up to get something in return. That's NOT suggesting that the Wolves SHOULD trade Wiggins. But to consider him entirely off limits seems a bit too myopic for me.
What if the Sacramento Kings thought he was the next Michael Jordan and/or Buddy Hield and offered a crazy deal? Everybody has a price.*
* Except for Towns.
FIrst off, Leo's Pizza won the Z league championship that season. SO THERE!
What does NBA history have to do with players building their skill set? Wiggins was considered a pretty good defender in college, but he wasn't playing 38 minutes a game, and it takes time for a player (particularly one that is stilling growing into his body) to build up his endurance.
Everyone has a price (including Towns). Suppose Denver fell into the #1 pick, and offered it and Jokic for Towns. Are you not going to consider it? You always listen to offers, but you are only trading Wiggins for a guy that can play the same role, and is also likely to be here for more than one or two years.
Lip, was certainly considering a trade when he stated
I'm just saying that I'm more inclined to keep Gorgui than Wiggins as the sort of player we need goring forward while listening to offers for Wiggins if the deal would bring back value comparable to Wiggins. Of course I'd expect to get more in return for Wiggins than for Gorgui.
My point is that Wiggins is the type of player we have constantly been looking for. He is the type of player we wanted next to KG, and Love, but could never get. He's 22 years old, and has been taking more scoring load on each of his three seasons. Get a better defender next to Towns, and everyone will be surprised how many of those flaws fade away.
Maybe. Hopefully.
I don't think the Wolves trade Wiggins this summer. Thibs must know just how far away the team is and would be hesitant to choose winning "small" now vs. potentially winning "big" later.
That being said, EVENTUALLY this team will be required to win games. And Towns is going to have to improve (mostly defensively) and Wiggins is going to have to improve on both sides of the ball.
[Note: Timmy McBuckets is an overrated chucker who constantly whines to the officials. His team was bailed out by the officials in that championship game.]
sjm34 wrote:I wish I could pickup a pair of the Gorgui "rose colored glasses" . The guy is the weak link in the defense, is the reason they can load up on Wiggins and Towns offensively, and now has an albatross of a contract as well. Gorgui is now untradeable, and will be a wolf for life.
Can't believe we have waited for over 20 years to get a wing that could create his own offense, and we are now talking about trading him. Here's a comparison between WIg and Butler in their third seasons. Notice that Butler is 3 years older as well.
I am guessing that those talking about trading Wiggins, have never been "THE" player on their team. If you had been, you would realize how much energy you expend trying to continually take on double teams. It takes time for players to find their niche, and then fill in the other areas of their games. Butler came in as a defensive player, and slowly built
his offense, whereas Wiggins is doing the reverse. I have seen some nice changes in Andrews defense, but we won't see results until we put a big next to Towns who knows how to defend the PnR.
Yes!!! There seems to me some narrative that has developed here that people can inherently know how much effort someone is exerting in their game. But what takes more energy than a wing being double teamed every possession. I think we are so spurned as a franchise that we don't know a good thing when we have it. Wiggins is not the problem. We need people who can shoot and defend around him and Towns and all of the sudden they'll probably start talking about the two of them for 1st team defense.
lipoli390 wrote:A closing post-script based on tonight's game. Our great defensive hope started at PG tonight and guess what -- we gave up 123 points. Although Dunn did log 16 assists.
I missed the game so I'm relying entirely on the box score. But it's a familiar box score showing KAT to be the only critical "build-around" player on this roster. 28 points and 21 rebounds. But that's not just tonight. Put KAT in the line up and he'll give you 25 points and over 12 boards nearly every single game along with nearly 3 assists and at least 1 block. And his scoring is always efficient. He shot 54% from the field and was among the better 3-point shooters in the League at 36.2%. I know he needs a lot of work on his defense, but there's no denying he's a force offensively and on the boards. And remember that defensive rebounding is part of playing defense.
I've stated that I want to keep our entire core together, including Wiggins, Gorgui, Zach and Ricky. I stand by that, but there is only one guy on this roster I would absolutely positively not trade and that's KAT. Among the rest of the core guys I mentioned, here's how I rank them from least inclined to trade to most willing to trade (although I wouldn't try to trade any of them):
1. Gorgui -- The ultimate glue guy. Amazingly consistent and way underrated by many.
2. Zach - Assumign he comes back healthy, I still love his upside. With his 3-point shooting and ball-handling I see him as a potentially more complete player than Wiggins.
3. Ricky -- The only guy other than Gorgui who will take a charge and who will play with heart and fire in his belly on both ends of the court every single minute he's on the court. His recent improvement in his shooting vaults him ahead of Wiggins on my "reluctant to trade" list.
4. Wiggins -- A tremendous talent who has reached a point in his career where it's hard to see him as anything more than a great scorer who is somewhat streaky and not always engaged emotionally. He could still be more and I definitely don't think we should actively shop him. But I'd be all ears for the right offer.
I mean come on. There's not a GM in the entire league that would have Wiggins below Dieng, Lavine and Ricky from a value standpoint. He's the second most valuable player on the team and he's still super young. 20 PPG 22 year olds are few and far between in this league. Dieng is a bench big, Zach is coming off a torn ACL and Ricky has yet to be the primary ball handler on even a .500 team and he's already in the prime of his career.
Geez, I'm not saying that Gorgui and Wiggins command equal value on the trade market. I'm just saying that I'm more inclined to keep Gorgui than Wiggins as the sort of player we need goring forward while listening to offers for Wiggins if the deal would bring back value comparable to Wiggins. Of course I'd expect to get more in return for Wiggins than for Gorgui. And I'm under no illusions about what we'd get back for Zach or Ricky. I recognize we're not going to get sufficient value back for either of those two compared to the value they provideor will potentially will provide to us. We don't have any reliable 3-point shooter other than Zach and we have no NBA caliber PG other than Ricky. And their trade value is, I believe, understated now for the reasons you stated. So, I mean, come on.
I wasn't referring to trade value. I was referring to team value. Putting them in the order you did in terms of your inclination to trade them says you believe Wiggins is the least valuable of the 4 in terms of contribution to the team and he's 2 in reality. He's the second best player on this team. Make Dieng or Ricky score 23 a night while doing everything else and they couldn't do it for even close to 82 games. Ricky could do it for like a month and Dieng probably couldn't do it for even that long. They look better because they are asked to do less. Take Wiggins off this team. How well do you think they do? I think they do significantly worse because they'd have nobody outside of Towns that could score the ball. Scoring is still a big part of the NBA game and Wiggins is one of the best scorers in the league at 22. That is huge value that is minimized on this board for some reason because he's not grabbing 3 more boards and assists per game.
Unlike Lip, I actually did openly advocate trading Wiggins, so focus the criticism/dismissals on me. But actually don't, because I'm saying I'd trade him for Jimmy Butler, not Raef LaFrentz and a $50 gift certificate to TGI Friday's.
Advocating Wiggins for Butler is not insane and shouldn't be dismissed.
Wiggins is a great scorer, he's super athletic, and he's younger than Butler so his game should continue to improve. It's not crazy to think he could be a 28-30 point per game scorer someday. These are all good reasons to favor Wiggins.
At the same time, Butler is already an All-Star who plays two ways. He's bigger and stronger than Wiggins and a much better defender (Wiggins' lack of development defensively worries me). Butler's a better rebounder, passer, and ball-handler. He's still improving, despite his age. He has shown some questionable behavior, but he has a history of success on the court with Thibs. These are all legit reasons to favor Butler.
SameOldDrew wrote:Unlike Lip, I actually did openly advocate trading Wiggins, so focus the criticism/dismissals on me. But actually don't, because I'm saying I'd trade him for Jimmy Butler, not Raef LaFrentz and a $50 gift certificate to TGI Friday's.
Advocating Wiggins for Butler is not insane and shouldn't be dismissed.
Wiggins is a great scorer, he's super athletic, and he's younger than Butler so his game should continue to improve. It's not crazy to think he could be a 28-30 point per game scorer someday. These are all good reasons to favor Wiggins.
At the same time, Butler is already an All-Star who plays two ways. He's bigger and stronger than Wiggins and a much better defender (Wiggins' lack of development defensively worries me). Butler's a better rebounder, passer, and ball-handler. He's still improving, despite his age. He has shown some questionable behavior, but he has a history of success on the court with Thibs. These are all legit reasons to favor Butler.
I'd rather have Butler, but reasonable people could disagree.
My big thing on why I wouldn't make a butler for wiggins trade is, is the upgrade of wiggins to Butler going to move the wolves from 31 wins to a title contender I don't think so.
Butler will be 28 when the season starts and in my opinion would give us 3 to 4 years of prime Butler assuming Butler is resigned. Can we compete for a title in those 3 to 4 years I honestly don't know, but I would lean to no. I just believe that a wiggins trade will always be there and why speed up the process when it dosen't make us a contender. (Not saying wiggins will ever reach the level where he can lead us to being contenders but I am willing to take the risk. )
I'd give everyone on our roster and our draft pick except for KAT and Wiggins. This gives us the core we need. Swapping Wiggins for Butler makes us barely better.
