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Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:11 pm
by TAFKASP
lipoli390 wrote: Jon said, on the positive side, were those who told him Teague would be a better fit offensively for Thibs, running the pick-and-roll with Towns and spacing the floor. Yes, a better fit, not necessarily a better player. On the negative side were those who told Jon they thought Rubio was the better PG overall with Ricky being the better passer and better defender. Jon went on to say there were a few who said there are questions about whether Teague maintains consistent effort and intensity which these guys thought might ultimately put him on the outs with Thibs.
So in other words those who're paid to know this kinda stuff have opinions that vary just as widely as they do on this message board!
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:13 pm
by Monster
lipoli390 wrote:monsterpile wrote:The overrating of Rubio and underrating of Teague is getting hilarious. I'm starting to more fully understand why Porkchop went full Porkchop. Lol
The narrative that Teague was brought because he fits Thibs way of doing things is also kinda hilarious. I'm sure the league is littered with coaches that are looking for a pass first PG that can't shoot or score that does a lot of good things. Yep I'm sure their are a lot of coaches out there that are looking for a guy like that to fit their system. Lol lol lol. Most coaches and GMs around the league would be looking to do something different. It's not like Teague fits some super specialized fit for Thibs.
And then there is the talk about Thibs not bringing in enough shooting but basically gloss over Teague is a pretty big upgrade in that department mostly because if you are honest with yourself Rubio hasn't proved he is anything more than very below average as a shooter period. If you believe in him fine but you better acknowledge the reality he may never be even a little below average in that area. Some people seem to just assume it was gina happen or he was going to overcome that with some sort of wizardry. Could that happen? Sure I wouldn't have hated seeing if it could happen but we got something back for Rubio...time to move on. The Jazz may have a solid fit for him or they may even be suckers. Regardless Rubio is the first passing PG they have had since D-will. It will probably seem really good to have a player like him there.
Meanwhile Teague can do a little over everything. He can penetrate more than Rubio and he isn't just a scoring PG he is usually a top 10 assist guy. You would think we traded Rubio and signed a 29 year old Ridnour or something.
It's funny how Thibs gets ripped for bringing in his guys or guys that fit his vision or whatever and that's seen as a negative but some people here won't let go of their guy Rubio for a player that not only fits better (but of course Thibs doesn't know how to construct a roster) but may actually even be a better player.
I've gone on long enough. I respect everyone's opinions but I had to share how I see it. I've already been wrong on a few things when it comes to the NBA just in the last 4 weeks some of which I am pretty happy about! There will be more things I will be wrong about so we will see how things work out.
Well Monster, as I've mentioned before, personally I see the transactions that brought us Teague and the OKC pick in exchange for Rubio as close to a wash, although I'd have slightly preferred keeping Ricky.
But as the whether your view is so one-sidedly correct that the opposing view makes you laugh, let's look at what Jon K learned from talking to some top basketball people in Vegas the past few days. I just heard Jon on Barriero. Jon said the responses he's gotten from highly respected NBA guys on the Teague for Rubio swap has been mixed. Jon said, on the positive side, were those who told him Teague would be a better fit offensively for Thibs, running the pick-and-roll with Towns and spacing the floor. Yes, a better fit, not necessarily a better player. On the negative side were those who told Jon they thought Rubio was the better PG overall with Ricky being the better passer and better defender. Jon went on to say there were a few who said there are questions about whether Teague maintains consistent effort and intensity which these guys thought might ultimately put him on the outs with Thibs. This is the one that disturbs me. Actually, Jim Pete said essentially the same thing in a radio interview a week ago.
So while you're so confidently dismissive of those on this board who question Thibs on this, there are apparently a number of respected NBA insiders who also question the move. As Jon K said, the reactions he's gotten from those NBA folks in Vegas has been mixed. Not surprisingly, the reactions from those on this message board have also been mixed. I guess you consider those who disagree with you on this hilariously misguided. I guess you're easily amused.
Good info and thanks for sharing it. Alot of my issue with some of the stances people have exposed is I don't perceive them as particularly nuanced IMHO. It feels like these moves are questioned without really putting much look into the other side of them. I'm not saying these moves should be without question but it feels like they are basically tagged as ok moves or even bad with limited information about the players we brought in. It feels more like hot takes than well thought out posts which this forum tends to have a lot of which is why I come here. I probably went off more than I should in my post but that's probably the true reason for frustration if that makes any sense. I'm probably being unfair. People are clearly not ready to move to that point in some cases like with Rubio. My bad.
FWIW the Dunc'd on guys hated the Crawford signing for the Wolves too. Lol The reality is the I think we could agree the grade for that signing can go up depending on what players they get. If they get the guys that make sense for this team (3 point shooters with decent defense which we all want!) to fill out the roster signing Crawford might be more reasonable right? If the Wolves end up with fringe NBA players for the last 3 or so roster spots and we spent our one chance to get a legit rotation player on Crawford? Yeah that would be bad but I highly doubt that will happen. We will see. They did mention when taking about Crawford's buyout he is one of the most popular players in the league. You don't pay for that but Crawford really does seem like a terrific dude and smart and all that. I would not have guessed that based on his game and I'm sure you know what I mean. :)
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:23 pm
by Lipoli390
TheSP wrote:lipoli390 wrote: Jon said, on the positive side, were those who told him Teague would be a better fit offensively for Thibs, running the pick-and-roll with Towns and spacing the floor. Yes, a better fit, not necessarily a better player. On the negative side were those who told Jon they thought Rubio was the better PG overall with Ricky being the better passer and better defender. Jon went on to say there were a few who said there are questions about whether Teague maintains consistent effort and intensity which these guys thought might ultimately put him on the outs with Thibs.
So in other words those who're paid to know this kinda stuff have opinions that vary just as widely as they do on this message board!
Exactly!!!
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:42 pm
by Lipoli390
monsterpile wrote:lipoli390 wrote:monsterpile wrote:The overrating of Rubio and underrating of Teague is getting hilarious. I'm starting to more fully understand why Porkchop went full Porkchop. Lol
The narrative that Teague was brought because he fits Thibs way of doing things is also kinda hilarious. I'm sure the league is littered with coaches that are looking for a pass first PG that can't shoot or score that does a lot of good things. Yep I'm sure their are a lot of coaches out there that are looking for a guy like that to fit their system. Lol lol lol. Most coaches and GMs around the league would be looking to do something different. It's not like Teague fits some super specialized fit for Thibs.
And then there is the talk about Thibs not bringing in enough shooting but basically gloss over Teague is a pretty big upgrade in that department mostly because if you are honest with yourself Rubio hasn't proved he is anything more than very below average as a shooter period. If you believe in him fine but you better acknowledge the reality he may never be even a little below average in that area. Some people seem to just assume it was gina happen or he was going to overcome that with some sort of wizardry. Could that happen? Sure I wouldn't have hated seeing if it could happen but we got something back for Rubio...time to move on. The Jazz may have a solid fit for him or they may even be suckers. Regardless Rubio is the first passing PG they have had since D-will. It will probably seem really good to have a player like him there.
Meanwhile Teague can do a little over everything. He can penetrate more than Rubio and he isn't just a scoring PG he is usually a top 10 assist guy. You would think we traded Rubio and signed a 29 year old Ridnour or something.
It's funny how Thibs gets ripped for bringing in his guys or guys that fit his vision or whatever and that's seen as a negative but some people here won't let go of their guy Rubio for a player that not only fits better (but of course Thibs doesn't know how to construct a roster) but may actually even be a better player.
I've gone on long enough. I respect everyone's opinions but I had to share how I see it. I've already been wrong on a few things when it comes to the NBA just in the last 4 weeks some of which I am pretty happy about! There will be more things I will be wrong about so we will see how things work out.
Well Monster, as I've mentioned before, personally I see the transactions that brought us Teague and the OKC pick in exchange for Rubio as close to a wash, although I'd have slightly preferred keeping Ricky.
But as the whether your view is so one-sidedly correct that the opposing view makes you laugh, let's look at what Jon K learned from talking to some top basketball people in Vegas the past few days. I just heard Jon on Barriero. Jon said the responses he's gotten from highly respected NBA guys on the Teague for Rubio swap has been mixed. Jon said, on the positive side, were those who told him Teague would be a better fit offensively for Thibs, running the pick-and-roll with Towns and spacing the floor. Yes, a better fit, not necessarily a better player. On the negative side were those who told Jon they thought Rubio was the better PG overall with Ricky being the better passer and better defender. Jon went on to say there were a few who said there are questions about whether Teague maintains consistent effort and intensity which these guys thought might ultimately put him on the outs with Thibs. This is the one that disturbs me. Actually, Jim Pete said essentially the same thing in a radio interview a week ago.
So while you're so confidently dismissive of those on this board who question Thibs on this, there are apparently a number of respected NBA insiders who also question the move. As Jon K said, the reactions he's gotten from those NBA folks in Vegas has been mixed. Not surprisingly, the reactions from those on this message board have also been mixed. I guess you consider those who disagree with you on this hilariously misguided. I guess you're easily amused.
Good info and thanks for sharing it. Alot of my issue with some of the stances people have exposed is I don't perceive them as particularly nuanced IMHO. It feels like these moves are questioned without really putting much look into the other side of them. I'm not saying these moves should be without question but it feels like they are basically tagged as ok moves or even bad with limited information about the players we brought in. It feels more like hot takes than well thought out posts which this forum tends to have a lot of which is why I come here. I probably went off more than I should in my post but that's probably the true reason for frustration if that makes any sense. I'm probably being unfair. People are clearly not ready to move to that point in some cases like with Rubio. My bad.
FWIW the Dunc'd on guys hated the Crawford signing for the Wolves too. Lol The reality is the I think we could agree the grade for that signing can go up depending on what players they get. If they get the guys that make sense for this team (3 point shooters with decent defense which we all want!) to fill out the roster signing Crawford might be more reasonable right? If the Wolves end up with fringe NBA players for the last 3 or so roster spots and we spent our one chance to get a legit rotation player on Crawford? Yeah that would be bad but I highly doubt that will happen. We will see. They did mention when taking about Crawford's buyout he is one of the most popular players in the league. You don't pay for that but Crawford really does seem like a terrific dude and smart and all that. I would not have guessed that based on his game and I'm sure you know what I mean. :)
I get what you're saying, Monster. There's a lot of emotion that goes with being a fan. And we all get attached to certain players. I loved Rubio -- his game and the way he conducted himself and gave his all to the organization and fans. So I've had to guard against a purely emotional reaction to what Thibs did. My initial reaction before posting about it was pretty negative. On reflection, I came around to what I think is a pretty balanced view, although admittedly my opinion might be partially skewed by emotion.
My overall guarded assessment of Thibs' moves since trading for Butler stems largely from my disagreement with what appears to be Thibs approach. He seems focused on putting together a grind-it-out, primarily two-point shooting team -- sort of a Bulls II. But the good news in my view is that, addition to making a great move getting Butler + the #16 pick, Thibs hasn't done anything that can truely be viewed as boneheaded. That distinguishes him from all the prior Wolves top basketball executives. Even Flip, who I loved, made a boneheaded move trading a future first round pick for Payne and another boneheaded move selling the 26th pick in the draft for cash. I said so at the time as did many others, so it's not hindsight. I won't go through the litany of boneheaded moves by Kahn and McHale before him.
Bottom line is that Thibs has a plan and is executing the plan. He kept his powder dry last summer and is now building the kind of team that he thinks can succeed. Moreover, he's doing it while still keeping our key young players and without tying the franchise to risky long-term contracts. Remember Troy Hudson? :). For the first time, I get the sense that the Wolves front office is being run by pros and that gives me comfort even as Thibs makes moves that differ from what I'd do.
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:25 pm
by Monster
So Thibs is safe from bone headed moves until we sign Luc!!! Lol jk
Your assessment is plenty fair and balanced in your reply. I appreciate it. I'll add a couple thoughts.
I admit to being a homer but I was surprised when I spent some time watching Gibson how well he guarded on the perimeter. Today Thibs basically said he could guard any position. That may be a stretch but he looked like a guy that can do well enough on a switch to most players. I think we would all agree that type of guy able to play the PF was sorely needed here even if Belly was healthy because he was basically the only guy that was able to do it. So sure Taj can't hit a 3 but other than that he actually looks like a guy that can fit and play well in this new NBA defensively. That's pretty big espcially since he actually has enough post game to beat up a smaller player. 14 million per was a lot to spend on him though but man he is a pretty good player.
One reason I would have liked to keep the young guys together or even do everything else and not sign Gibson was to keep a nice chunk of cap space to sign young somewhat promising players to relatively inexpensive deals for at least 3 years. There haven't been many of those deals. It seems like most of these guys are doing basically 2 year deals at the most. Guys like Waiters and Olynyk got paid market value imo. Both could end up being good values or just about what they got. Waiters has the upside to be a bigger value but that's my opinion. Anyway maybe we could have ended up signing some guys to deals like I wanted but I'm not sure based on how things have played out. As just an example maybe we could have brought back Bazz for one of those types of deals but would he want to lock himself into 3 years with no clear path as a starter and maybe even as a top bench player? Probably not unless he absolutely loves being here etc. the Dunc'd On guys suggested the Lakers sign him for a 1 year deal and add to the depth they have there. That does seem like a pretty good spot and I am sure he would like being in LA. There are probably some other guys that may have been better fits and would be more likely to be up for that type of a deal. Of course you could sign that guy and he turns out to be...no good. Lol Some of those deals could still come in though. One thing to consider is that because the Wolves are slightly below the cap still I believe the Wolves still could lock up a young guy on a vet min 3 year contract if I understand the rules right. If we see a guy we think could be that next Seth Curry or Covington etc (optimism reigns!) that's a valueable possiblity over a 1 or 2 year deal if the player agrees to it. Again how Thibs and Layden fill out the rest of the roster will be big in their final grade of this offseason. Of course it's a preliminary grade like you said in your first post. We could look back in a year and have a very different grade both good and bad...and then still possibly be wrong. lol we could say this offseason looked terrible and than 2 years Patton or some other guy turns out to be really good or we get a terrific player with the OKC pick etc. At this point I think we should have opened up space for a max contract for Matt Costello! :)
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:48 pm
by mjs34
I'll give Thibs a C for last season, and unlike others I am disappointed with the Dieng contract. I think it was too much, but also there was no reason to sign a mediocre player to a four year extension with anther year left on his former deal. Even though many have argued that it was a fair price, I think we can all see that is was a mistake now. Gorgui is left unguarded for the most part on offense, and we had to sign Taj for 14 mil for his defense.
I'll give him a B for this season as I think getting Butler was something he couldn't pass up. I think it was necessary to guarantee we make the playoffs. The rubio deal as well as signing Crawford have me stumped. I was pretty sure our defense was the weak point of our team last season. I am also concerned with how quickly this team has moved away from the youth movement.
Is Thibs a great defensive coach, or has he just had great players? Was Boston a great defensive team before KG got there? Why is he so attached to Gorgui when G is a liability at one of the staples of Thibs defensive strategy (icing the PnR).
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:49 pm
by Lipoli390
monsterpile wrote:So Thibs is safe from bone headed moves until we sign Luc!!! Lol jk
Your assessment is plenty fair and balanced in your reply. I appreciate it. I'll add a couple thoughts.
I admit to being a homer but I was surprised when I spent some time watching Gibson how well he guarded on the perimeter. Today Thibs basically said he could guard any position. That may be a stretch but he looked like a guy that can do well enough on a switch to most players. I think we would all agree that type of guy able to play the PF was sorely needed here even if Belly was healthy because he was basically the only guy that was able to do it. So sure Taj can't hit a 3 but other than that he actually looks like a guy that can fit and play well in this new NBA defensively. That's pretty big espcially since he actually has enough post game to beat up a smaller player. 14 million per was a lot to spend on him though but man he is a pretty good player.
One reason I would have liked to keep the young guys together or even do everything else and not sign Gibson was to keep a nice chunk of cap space to sign young somewhat promising players to relatively inexpensive deals for at least 3 years. There haven't been many of those deals. It seems like most of these guys are doing basically 2 year deals at the most. Guys like Waiters and Olynyk got paid market value imo. Both could end up being good values or just about what they got. Waiters has the upside to be a bigger value but that's my opinion. Anyway maybe we could have ended up signing some guys to deals like I wanted but I'm not sure based on how things have played out. As just an example maybe we could have brought back Bazz for one of those types of deals but would he want to lock himself into 3 years with no clear path as a starter and maybe even as a top bench player? Probably not unless he absolutely loves being here etc. the Dunc'd On guys suggested the Lakers sign him for a 1 year deal and add to the depth they have there. That does seem like a pretty good spot and I am sure he would like being in LA. There are probably some other guys that may have been better fits and would be more likely to be up for that type of a deal. Of course you could sign that guy and he turns out to be...no good. Lol Some of those deals could still come UIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowUIKeyInputRightArrowin though. One thing to consider is that because the Wolves are slightly below the cap still I believe the Wolves still could lock up a young guy on a vet min 3 year contract if I understand the rules right. If we see a guy we think could be that next Seth Curry or Covington etc (optimism reigns!) that's a valueable possiblity over a 1 or 2 year deal if the player agrees to it. Again how Thibs and Layden fill out the rest of the roster will be big in their final grade of this offseason. Of course it's a preliminary grade like you said in your first post. We could look back in a year and have a very different grade both good and bad...and then still possibly be wrong. lol we could say this offseason looked terrible and than 2 years Patton or some other guy turns out to be really good or we get a terrific player with the OKC pick etc. At this point I think we should have opened up space for a max contract for Matt Costello! :)
I'll lapse into full rant mode if we sign Luc, Sessions or Jennings. :). Other things than could put me in full hyperbole mode would be (1) John Collins putting himself in rookie-of-the-year conversations while Patton rehabs his foot all season, (2) Afflalo signing elsewhere and ending the season in contention for 6th man of the year, (3) Butler missing 15+ games with various injuries, (4) LaVine making the allstar team in the East while neither Wiggins nor Butler make it in the West, (5) Ricky hitting over 35% of his threes and leading the Jazz into the playoffs ahead of the Wolves, and (6) the Wolves ending up in 7th place or worse in the West.
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:37 pm
by Monster
sjm34 wrote:I'll give Thibs a C for last season, and unlike others I am disappointed with the Dieng contract. I think it was too much, but also there was no reason to sign a mediocre player to a four year extension with anther year left on his former deal. Even though many have argued that it was a fair price, I think we can all see that is was a mistake now. Gorgui is left unguarded for the most part on offense, and we had to sign Taj for 14 mil for his defense.
I'll give him a B for this season as I think getting Butler was something he couldn't pass up. I think it was necessary to guarantee we make the playoffs. The rubio deal as well as signing Crawford have me stumped. I was pretty sure our defense was the weak point of our team last season. I am also concerned with how quickly this team has moved away from the youth movement.
Is Thibs a great defensive coach, or has he just had great players? Was Boston a great defensive team before KG got there? Why is he so attached to Gorgui when G is a liability at one of the staples of Thibs defensive strategy (icing the PnR).
Good point bringing up Dieng's deal with your grade. At the time based on last year's market Dieng's deal looked like a good value contract. You are right that now they likely should have waited till this year. Olynyk just got 4 years 52 million and I would say he and Dieng are somewhere around the same tier of players. People will value them differently. Of course Olynyk ended up being unrestricted so that may have got him more money. It will be interesting to see what J Green ends up getting from Memphis, what Denver pays Plumblee and what Dallas gives Noel to see more of what this year's market really is for those types of players. I don't think Dieng's contract is a good value anymore but it's probably moveable but time will tell.
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:38 pm
by BloopOracle
sjm34 wrote:I'll give Thibs a C for last season, and unlike others I am disappointed with the Dieng contract. I think it was too much, but also there was no reason to sign a mediocre player to a four year extension with anther year left on his former deal. Even though many have argued that it was a fair price, I think we can all see that is was a mistake now. Gorgui is left unguarded for the most part on offense, and we had to sign Taj for 14 mil for his defense.
I'll give him a B for this season as I think getting Butler was something he couldn't pass up. I think it was necessary to guarantee we make the playoffs. The rubio deal as well as signing Crawford have me stumped. I was pretty sure our defense was the weak point of our team last season. I am also concerned with how quickly this team has moved away from the youth movement.
Is Thibs a great defensive coach, or has he just had great players? Was Boston a great defensive team before KG got there? Why is he so attached to Gorgui when G is a liability at one of the staples of Thibs defensive strategy (icing the PnR).
Thibs was coaching multiple top 10 defensive teams many years before he ever got to Boston he didn't just suddenly appear smh, he ran Jeff Van Gundy's Knicks and Rockets defensive schemes for a decade. There's a reason he's regarded as arguably the best defensive coach of our generation, it just blows my mind that people attack a man with his track record after coaching a team with our track record after one season and then coming away thinking he is the problem.
Re: Thibs Grade As PBO
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:59 am
by SameOldNudityDrew
monsterpile wrote:sjm34 wrote:I'll give Thibs a C for last season, and unlike others I am disappointed with the Dieng contract. I think it was too much, but also there was no reason to sign a mediocre player to a four year extension with anther year left on his former deal. Even though many have argued that it was a fair price, I think we can all see that is was a mistake now. Gorgui is left unguarded for the most part on offense, and we had to sign Taj for 14 mil for his defense.
I'll give him a B for this season as I think getting Butler was something he couldn't pass up. I think it was necessary to guarantee we make the playoffs. The rubio deal as well as signing Crawford have me stumped. I was pretty sure our defense was the weak point of our team last season. I am also concerned with how quickly this team has moved away from the youth movement.
Is Thibs a great defensive coach, or has he just had great players? Was Boston a great defensive team before KG got there? Why is he so attached to Gorgui when G is a liability at one of the staples of Thibs defensive strategy (icing the PnR).
Good point bringing up Dieng's deal with your grade. At the time based on last year's market Dieng's deal looked like a good value contract. You are right that now they likely should have waited till this year. Olynyk just got 4 years 52 million and I would say he and Dieng are somewhere around the same tier of players. People will value them differently. Of course Olynyk ended up being unrestricted so that may have got him more money. It will be interesting to see what J Green ends up getting from Memphis, what Denver pays Plumblee and what Dallas gives Noel to see more of what this year's market really is for those types of players. I don't think Dieng's contract is a good value anymore but it's probably moveable but time will tell.
I think Gorgui's a limited player (limited mostly by being so slow), but I think he's better than these posts imply. He's a better defender than Towns and doesn't make many mistakes offensively. He does a bit of everything, scores, rebounds, gets blocks and steals. I wish he took more perimeter shots (I still think corner 3s could be his thing--he shoots a really good percentage there, but hasn't taken that many, which is on Thibs), but he's one of the better midrange shooters in the game (seriously, look it up) and a very good FT shooter, which is great from a big man. Advanced stat guys like fivethirtyeight.com have ranked him as a "good starter" level player, way above LaVine and Wiggins. The market dried up this year making his contract look a little pricey if you assume he had been an RFA this year, but you can't fault Thibs for not knowing how bad the market would be for players this year, and it's still a fair deal for a big you can count on for a productive 30-35 minutes of basketball.