It is Prince

[Carlos Danger]

Monster, I'm not trying to say Flip is a terrible coach (although I'm sure some on here will - ha!). But...in effect, we traded Love for the #1 overall pick. And we had Dieng and Bazz returning for their second years to assume bigger roles. Then added: LaVine, Brewer, Thad Young and Mo Williams. That was some decent talent around Rubio, Pek and Martin. I mean...at the start of last year many were probably just as excited as we are now. And yes, it blew up quickly with injuries. But it concerns me a little that the guys we are counting on this year played so poorly together last year. That's not to say there wasn't improvement. Bazz looked real good until he got hurt. LaVine seemed to get better and looked great by year end. Wiggins seemed to steadily improve. But as you mentioned, the defense was still horrible. If KG and Prince can help in anyway improve that end of the game - it's worth it.

I think this is a fun discussion so I will continue with some thoughts.

You said we added Brewer but he was on the roster the previous year.

It wasn't coaching that had Thad playing poorly heck Flip stuck by him and before we moved him it seemed like Thad was getting back to being an effective player. Dieng didn't seem to improve which was a disappointment.

You say it's disappointing that guys didn't play well together which added up to losses. Well guess what the only guys that played together or had the opportunity to do so most of the season were Wiggins, Dieng and Lavine. They were the only players to play 70 or more games on the entire team. Bud was next with 67 and shockingly Bennett was 5th on the team in games played at 57. 25 total players put in minutes for the team last year. That's unreal turnover for one year on the roster. Another way to put this in perspective: Lorenzo Brown a guy that wasn't on the team to start the year and signed a couple 10 day contracts before being signed for the rest of the year played 29 games. There were 12 other Wolves players that played fewer games than Brown.

All my points are that there were lots of pretty obvious reasons why we were bad last year. Coaching may not have helped either but it was a pretty brutal situation at times. There were a number of games we were a step above a d-league team or a SL team with a slew of new faces and few vets. After watching SL and the Pan Am games I can see why at times the Wolves probably were so poor defensively with a lot of new players and likely little time to instill a defense not unlike those teams and the Wolves were playing against teams that were more prepared. Like I have said it was so brutally bad defensively I can't give Flip and his staff a pass there and I have been pretty consist an in saying that's where I would like to see improvement from the coaching staff. I do think we need to remember the context of last year even on defense. There were a lot of factors making the season pretty rough.

My bad on Brewer. But that sort of makes my original point even more valid. Adelman's starting 5: Love, Rubio, Brewer, Martin and Pek wins 40 games. The next year we drop Love and add Wiggins and Thad Young and win 16. Love was good. But not that good. In fact, if we go back to 2012-13, Adelman won 31 games and Love was out that whole season with the exception of 18 games. That 31 games is twice as many than Flip did last year and it was playing mostly: Ridnour, Kirilinko, Cunningham, Pek and Derrick Williams!

Again - I concede the fact we had significant injuries. But all teams have injuries. Guys have to step up. And coaches have to put guys in positions to succeed. The defensive breakdowns were pretty inexcusable at this level - even with different guys subbing in due to injuries. The only pass I can give Flip is that he knew as GM that Flip the coach had a complete pass to tank. That allowed him to play LaVine at PG were he wasn't good, but maybe it helps him going forward. And he got to experiment with a few other things as well i.e. Payne. But at the end of the day he has to own the fact that he coached the team to the worst record in the NBA. We know some of that was tanking. But not all of it was!

[Big O [enjin:13874644]]

"Adelman's starting 5: Love, Rubio, Brewer, Martin and Pek wins 40 games."

Rubio played all 82 games that year, Brewer 81, Love 77, and Martin 68. Hell Pek even played 54. It isn't/wasn't the coach - it's injuries and consistency in the lineup. Stay healthy and a .500 season is not out of the question.

[Monster]

Monster, I'm not trying to say Flip is a terrible coach (although I'm sure some on here will - ha!). But...in effect, we traded Love for the #1 overall pick. And we had Dieng and Bazz returning for their second years to assume bigger roles. Then added: LaVine, Brewer, Thad Young and Mo Williams. That was some decent talent around Rubio, Pek and Martin. I mean...at the start of last year many were probably just as excited as we are now. And yes, it blew up quickly with injuries. But it concerns me a little that the guys we are counting on this year played so poorly together last year. That's not to say there wasn't improvement. Bazz looked real good until he got hurt. LaVine seemed to get better and looked great by year end. Wiggins seemed to steadily improve. But as you mentioned, the defense was still horrible. If KG and Prince can help in anyway improve that end of the game - it's worth it.

I think this is a fun discussion so I will continue with some thoughts.

You said we added Brewer but he was on the roster the previous year.

It wasn't coaching that had Thad playing poorly heck Flip stuck by him and before we moved him it seemed like Thad was getting back to being an effective player. Dieng didn't seem to improve which was a disappointment.

You say it's disappointing that guys didn't play well together which added up to losses. Well guess what the only guys that played together or had the opportunity to do so most of the season were Wiggins, Dieng and Lavine. They were the only players to play 70 or more games on the entire team. Bud was next with 67 and shockingly Bennett was 5th on the team in games played at 57. 25 total players put in minutes for the team last year. That's unreal turnover for one year on the roster. Another way to put this in perspective: Lorenzo Brown a guy that wasn't on the team to start the year and signed a couple 10 day contracts before being signed for the rest of the year played 29 games. There were 12 other Wolves players that played fewer games than Brown.

All my points are that there were lots of pretty obvious reasons why we were bad last year. Coaching may not have helped either but it was a pretty brutal situation at times. There were a number of games we were a step above a d-league team or a SL team with a slew of new faces and few vets. After watching SL and the Pan Am games I can see why at times the Wolves probably were so poor defensively with a lot of new players and likely little time to instill a defense not unlike those teams and the Wolves were playing against teams that were more prepared. Like I have said it was so brutally bad defensively I can't give Flip and his staff a pass there and I have been pretty consist an in saying that's where I would like to see improvement from the coaching staff. I do think we need to remember the context of last year even on defense. There were a lot of factors making the season pretty rough.

My bad on Brewer. But that sort of makes my original point even more valid. Adelman's starting 5: Love, Rubio, Brewer, Martin and Pek wins 40 games. The next year we drop Love and add Wiggins and Thad Young and win 16. Love was good. But not that good. In fact, if we go back to 2012-13, Adelman won 31 games and Love was out that whole season with the exception of 18 games. That 31 games is twice as many than Flip did last year and it was playing mostly: Ridnour, Kirilinko, Cunningham, Pek and Derrick Williams!

Again - I concede the fact we had significant injuries. But all teams have injuries. Guys have to step up. And coaches have to put guys in positions to succeed. The defensive breakdowns were pretty inexcusable at this level - even with different guys subbing in due to injuries. The only pass I can give Flip is that he knew as GM that Flip the coach had a complete pass to tank. That allowed him to play LaVine at PG were he wasn't good, but maybe it helps him going forward. And he got to experiment with a few other things as well i.e. Payne. But at the end of the day he has to own the fact that he coached the team to the worst record in the NBA. We know some of that was tanking. But not all of it was!

You are missing the point that of that starting 5 that won 40 games none of them played more than 39 games last season. Let's look at guys that played last year's minutes compared to this year:

Rubio 82-24
Martin 68-39
Brewer 81-22
Love 77-0 (Thad played 48 games probably half of the games he wasn't very effective)
Pek 54-31 (Pek was obviously less effective last year and was clearly not healthy)

The 40 win season's bench was poor but it's hard to say last year's bench was any better. At least Dante and JJ were available for pretty much the entire season and they would have looked pretty good at times for the wolves last season. Lol

You bring up a good point with the 31 win season but Ricky AK and Pek were all playing well and around 75% of the games that year. In contrast Pek Rubio and Martin combined this year for like 90 games. JJ had a nice season off the bench and Luke had a nice season as well better than any vet we had this year considering he played over 80 games. Adelman got a decent amount out of that team but he wasn't really developing anyone either outside of Williams who played sorta decent. Remember this team started Lavine and played him a bunch of minutes at PG and that means a lot of losses. The Wolves had JJ or Rubio Manning the point most of that 31 win season.

[Carlos Danger]

Again - I concede the fact we had significant injuries. But all teams have injuries. Guys have to step up. And coaches have to put guys in positions to succeed.

You are missing the point that of that starting 5 that won 40 games none of them played more than 39 games last season. Let's look at guys that played last year's minutes compared to this year:

Rubio 82-24
Martin 68-39
Brewer 81-22
Love 77-0 (Thad played 48 games probably half of the games he wasn't very effective)
Pek 54-31 (Pek was obviously less effective last year and was clearly not healthy)

The 40 win season's bench was poor but it's hard to say last year's bench was any better. At least Dante and JJ were available for pretty much the entire season and they would have looked pretty good at times for the wolves last season. Lol

You bring up a good point with the 31 win season but Ricky AK and Pek were all playing well and around 75% of the games that year. In contrast Pek Rubio and Martin combined this year for like 90 games. JJ had a nice season off the bench and Luke had a nice season as well better than any vet we had this year considering he played over 80 games. Adelman got a decent amount out of that team but he wasn't really developing anyone either outside of Williams who played sorta decent. Remember this team started Lavine and played him a bunch of minutes at PG and that means a lot of losses. The Wolves had JJ or Rubio Manning the point most of that 31 win season.

Nope. Not missing your point on injuries/time missed at all. I've left that portion of my quote above. It's obvious and I acknowledge the injuries would logically equate to less wins. I just don't think it should have led to worst team in the NBA. To counter some of your other points:

1.) Wiggins is one of our best stars and played all 82 games.

2.) LaVine is someone many believe should be our start ahead of Martin this year and played in 77 games last year.

3.) Dieng is someone many believe to be a solid Center (although a drop off from Pek). He played 73 games last year.

4.) The combo of Thad Young/KG/Payne was a mess at PF. But the lack of games played had less to do with injuries and more to do with ineffective play. If Thad played well, he would have locked down the starting PF spot.

In other words...several guys we are excited about for this year contributed a lot to last year.

Rubio was the big injury that killed us. But again, a couple years ago he went down for significant time too and Adelman won more games with less. It is what it is. We had one of the worst seasons in Franchise history last year. Certainly the coach of said squad has to shoulder some accountability - right? And again, I fully recognize that Flip went into Tank Mode knowing that Flip the GM had his back. I'm not calling for Flip's head. I'm stating the obvious. The injury excuse is too convenient. They have talent. They need to play better.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Again - I concede the fact we had significant injuries. But all teams have injuries. Guys have to step up. And coaches have to put guys in positions to succeed.

You are missing the point that of that starting 5 that won 40 games none of them played more than 39 games last season. Let's look at guys that played last year's minutes compared to this year:

Rubio 82-24
Martin 68-39
Brewer 81-22
Love 77-0 (Thad played 48 games probably half of the games he wasn't very effective)
Pek 54-31 (Pek was obviously less effective last year and was clearly not healthy)

The 40 win season's bench was poor but it's hard to say last year's bench was any better. At least Dante and JJ were available for pretty much the entire season and they would have looked pretty good at times for the wolves last season. Lol

You bring up a good point with the 31 win season but Ricky AK and Pek were all playing well and around 75% of the games that year. In contrast Pek Rubio and Martin combined this year for like 90 games. JJ had a nice season off the bench and Luke had a nice season as well better than any vet we had this year considering he played over 80 games. Adelman got a decent amount out of that team but he wasn't really developing anyone either outside of Williams who played sorta decent. Remember this team started Lavine and played him a bunch of minutes at PG and that means a lot of losses. The Wolves had JJ or Rubio Manning the point most of that 31 win season.

Nope. Not missing your point on injuries/time missed at all. I've left that portion of my quote above. It's obvious and I acknowledge the injuries would logically equate to less wins. I just don't think it should have led to worst team in the NBA. To counter some of your other points:

1.) Wiggins is one of our best stars and played all 82 games.

2.) LaVine is someone many believe should be our start ahead of Martin this year and played in 77 games last year.

3.) Dieng is someone many believe to be a solid Center (although a drop off from Pek). He played 73 games last year.

4.) The combo of Thad Young/KG/Payne was a mess at PF. But the lack of games played had less to do with injuries and more to do with ineffective play. If Thad played well, he would have locked down the starting PF spot.

In other words...several guys we are excited about for this year contributed a lot to last year.

Rubio was the big injury that killed us. But again, a couple years ago he went down for significant time too and Adelman won more games with less. It is what it is. We had one of the worst seasons in Franchise history last year. Certainly the coach of said squad has to shoulder some accountability - right? And again, I fully recognize that Flip went into Tank Mode knowing that Flip the GM had his back. I'm not calling for Flip's head. I'm stating the obvious. The injury excuse is too convenient. They have talent. They need to play better.

You can't seriously believe two rookies and a second year player should have carried an NBA to more wins? We say those things about them going into this year with the reasonable expectation they will both be a lot better now that they aren't rookies any more and have an off season of additional development under their belt. If we knew they'd play the same as last year nobody would be that excited about this year and nobody would be preaching significant improvement for our team.

[Carlos Danger]

You can't seriously believe two rookies and a second year player should have carried an NBA to more wins? We say those things about them going into this year with the reasonable expectation they will both be a lot better now that they aren't rookies any more and have an off season of additional development under their belt. If we knew they'd play the same as last year nobody would be that excited about this year and nobody would be preaching significant improvement for our team.

Carry them? No. But contribute to a record better than worst in the NBA? Yes. Why not? Don't you think Towns will be an improvement to this year's team? Don't you think Wiggins/LaVine will improve? Well, it was the same last year. We had Wiggins as our #1 pick (plus LaVine). And we had Bazz/Dieng coming back for second seasons. So, yeah, I think they could have been better than worst in the NBA. If you are both Coach and GM, I think you have to shoulder some responsibility for one of the worst seasons in Franchise history. I'm not calling for his head. I'm just saying there is room for improvement in coaching too. Can anyone really disagree with that coming off of what we saw last year?

[Monster]

You can't seriously believe two rookies and a second year player should have carried an NBA to more wins? We say those things about them going into this year with the reasonable expectation they will both be a lot better now that they aren't rookies any more and have an off season of additional development under their belt. If we knew they'd play the same as last year nobody would be that excited about this year and nobody would be preaching significant improvement for our team.

Carry them? No. But contribute to a record better than worst in the NBA? Yes. Why not? Don't you think Towns will be an improvement to this year's team? Don't you think Wiggins/LaVine will improve? Well, it was the same last year. We had Wiggins as our #1 pick (plus LaVine). And we had Bazz/Dieng coming back for second seasons. So, yeah, I think they could have been better than worst in the NBA. If you are both Coach and GM, I think you have to shoulder some responsibility for one of the worst seasons in Franchise history. I'm not calling for his head. I'm just saying there is room for improvement in coaching too. Can anyone really disagree with that coming off of what we saw last year?

I think everyone would say the coach and the GM (Flip) deserves the responsibility of the 16 win season but I don't think your context in which you are looking at it is reasonable. Two 19 year old rookies playing big minutes aren't going to win or keep you in games especially Lavine who was raw after now starting in college. Rubio played less than half as many games last year as he did when they won 31 games. Pek played almost 3 times as many games and was more effective. Last year was clearly a developmental year before the season was half over. Sure they were trying to win games but they were doing it while throwing young guys out there and trading vets for whatever they could get. Do you think the Wolves would have won 31 games if they had traded JJ and Ridour for nothing half way through that season? I bet Adelman would have loved those moves. Lol

[Carlos Danger]

I think everyone would say the coach and the GM (Flip) deserves the responsibility of the 16 win season but I don't think your context in which you are looking at it is reasonable. Two 19 year old rookies playing big minutes aren't going to win or keep you in games especially Lavine who was raw after now starting in college. Rubio played less than half as many games last year as he did when they won 31 games. Pek played almost 3 times as many games and was more effective. Last year was clearly a developmental year before the season was half over. Sure they were trying to win games but they were doing it while throwing young guys out there and trading vets for whatever they could get. Do you think the Wolves would have won 31 games if they had traded JJ and Ridour for nothing half way through that season? I bet Adelman would have loved those moves. Lol

A couple of you have used the "19 year old rookie" line now which is true. But I think we can agree that #1 over all picks probably land in a different status bucket - right? I mean, do we lump Towns and Tyus Jones in the same bucket this year? Of course not. Towns is expected to contribute right away just like Wiggins last year. Top 5 lotto picks should be considered instant upgrades to most rosters. So I don't consider him playing a lot of minutes a negative, but rather a positive to the team. The stats back that up (Wiggins was second on the team in Win Shares).

Regarding it being a developmental year...Yes. I've repeatedly acknowledged that by stating over and over that Flip the Coach had the backing of Flip the GM to experiment and tank. But Flip assembled the roster and coached the team, so he has ultimate accountability. Maybe it would have been better to hold onto JJ Barea and cut loose GR3 to start the year? That would have given us better depth at PG to withstand the Rubio injury. We had to pay Barea regardless (buy out or salary). And GR3 never saw the court so that was just a wasted roster spot. Maybe Flip should have realized Turiaf was hurt to start the year and kept another big? We all know Pek's feet/ankles are chronic, so that was a disaster waiting to happen leaving only Dieng and Bennett/Hummel as bigs for a while. I know - hindsight always 20/20. I'm just saying Flip has to own all the things that contributed to one of the worst seasons in Franchise history. The good news is the bar is now set ridiculously low and there is really no place to go but up.

[mjs34]

Nope. Not missing your point on injuries/time missed at all. I've left that portion of my quote above. It's obvious and I acknowledge the injuries would logically equate to less wins. I just don't think it should have led to worst team in the NBA. To counter some of your other points:

1.) Wiggins is one of our best stars and played all 82 games.

2.) LaVine is someone many believe should be our start ahead of Martin this year and played in 77 games last year.

3.) Dieng is someone many believe to be a solid Center (although a drop off from Pek). He played 73 games last year.

4.) The combo of Thad Young/KG/Payne was a mess at PF. But the lack of games played had less to do with injuries and more to do with ineffective play. If Thad played well, he would have locked down the starting PF spot.

In other words...several guys we are excited about for this year contributed a lot to last year.

Rubio was the big injury that killed us. But again, a couple years ago he went down for significant time too and Adelman won more games with less. It is what it is. We had one of the worst seasons in Franchise history last year. Certainly the coach of said squad has to shoulder some accountability - right? And again, I fully recognize that Flip went into Tank Mode knowing that Flip the GM had his back. I'm not calling for Flip's head. I'm stating the obvious. The injury excuse is too convenient. They have talent. They need to play better.

You might want to re-evaluate the bolded part above. The wolves were 21-20 at the end of the laker game when Ricky went down. They finished 26-40, which is a 5-20 record after Ricky. I made the point then that Adelman actually didn't do any better than Rambis before him, when taking into account what Rambis had for a PG.

Of course it was soon to be HOF'er Rick Adelman, so that was just crazy talk?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Carlos, I absolutely agree with your take. Coaches can make a profound impact on team defense, even when equipped with less-than-ideal players. Look at the Sixers and what Brown was able to get out of those guys defensively. They had the 13th best defensive rating in the NBA!

We saw absolutely zero improvement defensively from this team over the course of the season - second year guys like Dieng, Bennett, and Shabazz included. In fact, for a while, we were on track to have one of the worst defenses in the history of the NBA. Still, we sported the worst defensive rating in the NBA in the past 5 years (Toronto was slightly worse in 2010/11).

KG's part-time status and a healthy Ricky will certainly help improve us defensively, but we need a complete transformation if anyone thinks an 8-seed is within our sights. Flip hasn't proven capable of adding team defensive value over and beyond the sum of his individual parts - which other than a couple of guys, aren't good on that side of the ball.