Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:Alex - I wasn't using the Mo comparison to demonstrate the need for a passing PG. That was a silly inference. I was just pointing out the reality that a scoring PG or a PG known for shooting doesn't necessarily make things better. Ricky makes us better defensively through his on-ball defense, steals and defensive rebounding. Oh, and as you pointed out, we're a point per game better offensively and that's under the coaching of offensive wizard Sam Mitchell.

I fully understand how Ricky's poor shooting is a drag on our offense. But you have to look at the whole package. If we replace Ricky it has to be a BETTER PG, based on the full set of skills and basketball IQ, not just a better scorer like, for example, Mo Williams.

And It's not like our roster is lacking in scorers with Wiggins, Towns, Bazz, LaVine, Martin and possibly Belly. We might be lacking in 3-point shooters, but even there it's hard to say given Sam's obvious failure to embrace that shot as a significant part of the offense.

lipoli390 wrote:Alex - I wasn't using the Mo comparison to demonstrate the need for a passing PG. That was a silly inference. I was just pointing out the reality that a scoring PG or a PG known for shooting doesn't necessarily make things better. Ricky makes us better defensively through his on-ball defense, steals and defensive rebounding. Oh, and as you pointed out, we're a point per game better offensively and that's under the coaching of offensive wizard Sam Mitchell.

I fully understand how Ricky's poor shooting is a drag on our offense. But you have to look at the whole package. If we replace Ricky it has to be a BETTER PG, based on the full set of skills and basketball IQ, not just a better scorer like, for example, Mo Williams.

And It's not like our roster is lacking in scorers with Wiggins, Towns, Bazz, LaVine, Martin and possibly Belly. We might be lacking in 3-point shooters, but even there it's hard to say given Sam's obvious failure to embrace that shot as a significant part of the offense.

The Wolves are lousy shooting team. And Mo Williams is a reserve type player for any team.

There are many PGs in the league ahead of him on the pecking order. Thus, any comparison between Mo W. and Rubio is slanted a bit. Again... I don't care how Rubio does vs. his backups. I only care how he performs against other starters in the L.

And he's basically an average starting PG who struggles mightily to score more and more as the game goes on.

PorkChop wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Alex - I wasn't using the Mo comparison to demonstrate the need for a passing PG. That was a silly inference. I was just pointing out the reality that a scoring PG or a PG known for shooting doesn't necessarily make things better. Ricky makes us better defensively through his on-ball defense, steals and defensive rebounding. Oh, and as you pointed out, we're a point per game better offensively and that's under the coaching of offensive wizard Sam Mitchell.

I fully understand how Ricky's poor shooting is a drag on our offense. But you have to look at the whole package. If we replace Ricky it has to be a BETTER PG, based on the full set of skills and basketball IQ, not just a better scorer like, for example, Mo Williams.

And It's not like our roster is lacking in scorers with Wiggins, Towns, Bazz, LaVine, Martin and possibly Belly. We might be lacking in 3-point shooters, but even there it's hard to say given Sam's obvious failure to embrace that shot as a significant part of the offense.

Can we point to any teams that have had success with this kind of approach from their pg. I mean we're not having success with it currently.

I read recently that Ricky is second only to Curry in the amount of time the ball stays in his hands per possession. Talk about two guys on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Is wise to use this approach when he's so offenaive challenged? I mean, if I'm on defense the longer that ball stays in Ricky hands the better .

You bring up some good points PC. I'll add this: Is Rubio really that much of a ball dominate player? I doubt it but obviously if he does t have the ball in his hands a healthy chunk what is the point of him being on the floor right? I will say that while Rubio is on the floor a pretty decent chunk of minutes he is playing with some guys that aren't even looking to score in Prince and KG so who exactly is he supposed to be passing to? 2 guys that have 2 seasons combined playing experience in the NBA? Rubio is supposed to be a terrific PG but I can see some legit reasons why he ends up with the ball on his hands a lot. He is basically playing with no volume 3 point threat in that lineup which is the opposite of what you would expect to have with a PG like him. I am not absolving Rubio as a guy that deserves blame but there are some personel issues offensively we all can agree on and we haven't mentioned a possible issue with the offense being run.

PG is a deep position in the NBA right now. Could the Wolves improve on Rubio one way or another? Yeah it's possible. I'd be interested in trying to find his replacement first before moving on. I think we would all agree he is a starting level PG in this league. That might now end up being good enough for this team but I'd like to see him play another year and see what happens. I don't like moving on from starting level players without an idea of who would replace them and just drafting a new guy might not be good enough for me but I also haven't gotten psyched up about the draft options yet it's a little too early.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Alex - I wasn't using the Mo comparison to demonstrate the need for a passing PG. That was a silly inference. I was just pointing out the reality that a scoring PG or a PG known for shooting doesn't necessarily make things better. Ricky makes us better defensively through his on-ball defense, steals and defensive rebounding. Oh, and as you pointed out, we're a point per game better offensively and that's under the coaching of offensive wizard Sam Mitchell.

I fully understand how Ricky's poor shooting is a drag on our offense. But you have to look at the whole package. If we replace Ricky it has to be a BETTER PG, based on the full set of skills and basketball IQ, not just a better scorer like, for example, Mo Williams.

And It's not like our roster is lacking in scorers with Wiggins, Towns, Bazz, LaVine, Martin and possibly Belly. We might be lacking in 3-point shooters, but even there it's hard to say given Sam's obvious failure to embrace that shot as a significant part of the offense.

lipoli390 wrote:Alex - I wasn't using the Mo comparison to demonstrate the need for a passing PG. That was a silly inference. I was just pointing out the reality that a scoring PG or a PG known for shooting doesn't necessarily make things better. Ricky makes us better defensively through his on-ball defense, steals and defensive rebounding. Oh, and as you pointed out, we're a point per game better offensively and that's under the coaching of offensive wizard Sam Mitchell.

I fully understand how Ricky's poor shooting is a drag on our offense. But you have to look at the whole package. If we replace Ricky it has to be a BETTER PG, based on the full set of skills and basketball IQ, not just a better scorer like, for example, Mo Williams.

And It's not like our roster is lacking in scorers with Wiggins, Towns, Bazz, LaVine, Martin and possibly Belly. We might be lacking in 3-point shooters, but even there it's hard to say given Sam's obvious failure to embrace that shot as a significant part of the offense.

The Wolves are lousy shooting team. And Mo Williams is a reserve type player for any team.

There are many PGs in the league ahead of him on the pecking order. Thus, any comparison between Mo W. and Rubio is slanted a bit. Again... I don't care how Rubio does vs. his backups. I only care how he performs against other starters in the L.

And he's basically an average starting PG who struggles mightily to score more and more as the game goes on.

Ditto

lipoli390 wrote:Alex - I wasn't using the Mo comparison to demonstrate the need for a passing PG. That was a silly inference. I was just pointing out the reality that a scoring PG or a PG known for shooting doesn't necessarily make things better. Ricky makes us better defensively through his on-ball defense, steals and defensive rebounding. Oh, and as you pointed out, we're a point per game better offensively and that's under the coaching of offensive wizard Sam Mitchell.

I fully understand how Ricky's poor shooting is a drag on our offense. But you have to look at the whole package. If we replace Ricky it has to be a BETTER PG, based on the full set of skills and basketball IQ, not just a better scorer like, for example, Mo Williams.

And It's not like our roster is lacking in scorers with Wiggins, Towns, Bazz, LaVine, Martin and possibly Belly. We might be lacking in 3-point shooters, but even there it's hard to say given Sam's obvious failure to embrace that shot as a significant part of the offense.

Ok with the whole "Rubio is good at so many things, scoring isn't as important". I mean are we really counting defensive rebounding as equal importance to scoring? Is Ricky getting an extra board or two or an extra steal then a guy who score 4-5 points more really the same? It's not like Rubio is banging down low on the boards and making the Wolves a great rebounding team, and him getting the board leads to fast breaks or anything.

Sure he gets more steals then other people, he also gambles more then most PG's as well. And again, it's not like those steals lead to the Wolves getting easy baskets or anything

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Rubio is firmly #5 among PGs in RPM. The stat has Westbrook and Curry as the best PGs , those 2 are on their own level. Lowry is the best PG in the East and he sits at #3. A household name like CP3 is #4 which reflects well of his current position in the league. Rubio is next guy, whether you like it or not and it's his defense that puts him there.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Rubio is firmly #5 among PGs in RPM. The stat has Westbrook and Curry as the best PGs , those 2 are on their own level. Lowry is the best PG in the East and he sits at #3. A household name like CP3 is #4 which reflects well of his current position in the league. Rubio is next guy, whether you like it or not and it's his defense that puts him there.

There ya go. Clearly Rubio is better then John Wall, Lillard, or Conley

alexftbl8181 wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Rubio is firmly #5 among PGs in RPM. The stat has Westbrook and Curry as the best PGs , those 2 are on their own level. Lowry is the best PG in the East and he sits at #3. A household name like CP3 is #4 which reflects well of his current position in the league. Rubio is next guy, whether you like it or not and it's his defense that puts him there.

There ya go. Clearly Rubio is better then John Wall, Lillard, or Conley

Just more evidence how bad that stat is. Can we officially retire it on this board now?

khans2k5 wrote:

alexftbl8181 wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Rubio is firmly #5 among PGs in RPM. The stat has Westbrook and Curry as the best PGs , those 2 are on their own level. Lowry is the best PG in the East and he sits at #3. A household name like CP3 is #4 which reflects well of his current position in the league. Rubio is next guy, whether you like it or not and it's his defense that puts him there.

There ya go. Clearly Rubio is better then John Wall, Lillard, or Conley

Just more evidence how bad that stat is. Can we officially retire it on this board now?

Yeah I mean what does Revolutions Per Minute have to do with being good in basketball?

khans2k5 wrote:

alexftbl8181 wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Rubio is firmly #5 among PGs in RPM. The stat has Westbrook and Curry as the best PGs , those 2 are on their own level. Lowry is the best PG in the East and he sits at #3. A household name like CP3 is #4 which reflects well of his current position in the league. Rubio is next guy, whether you like it or not and it's his defense that puts him there.

There ya go. Clearly Rubio is better then John Wall, Lillard, or Conley

Just more evidence how bad that stat is. Can we officially retire it on this board now?

That's the stat that people were using to show Muhammad is the league's worst defender... and then refuting when it showed Wiggins was the 5th worst defender, right?

Seriously, it's an ESPN created stat that gets people talking about ESPN. That's its purpose...

It seems to suck balls.



[Note: But it's funny to see it being used to show how flawed it is AND how great it is... depending on the argument. More stats = more narratives!]

RPM is meant to be a more refined version of the +/- stat. Like all +/- stats, there is noise in it. I don't think anyone should look at this stat as a declarative statement on a player's overall impact. It is a data point though and one that is directionally correct in most instances.

Is Bazz the worst defender in the league? Probably not. But is he a really poor defender? Hell yes!

Is Rubio the 5th best PG in the league? Nope. But are we a team that is way more competitive when he's on the floor? Hell yes!

The stat also says that Steph Curry, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, and Russell Westbrook are the best players in the league. It has Bogan Bogdanovic and Norris Cole as the two worst players in the league. That doesn't seem so outlandish to me.

Any stat has its flaws and I would argue that RPM is no less flawed than other "advanced" stats. If I looked at Win Shares/48, Andrew Wiggins would be Minnesota's 8th best player. Does anyone believe that to be true? If I looked at PER, Tayshaun Prince would be our 2nd to worst player, just behind Rudez. Does anyone believe that to be true?

RPM should never be cited as a sole criteria in judging a player, just like none of these other stats should be.