Minnesota Sports Forum

Rubio is 19th amongst PGs with significant PT in Defensive WS, and 15th amongst PGs in Defensive Box Plus Minus from Basketball Reference. I assume these stats aren't perfect either but certainly they give us a different lens for Rubio's intangibles.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_advanced.html

Edit. I loaded this one into excel and filtered out the players who don't play after rating by position. Again these columns are sortable.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

thedoper wrote:Basketball Reference has Rubio 289th on their defensive rating stat fyi. Don't really know which is better (or more accurate), but that puts him on par with Derrick Rose in terms of his D at the position. The top 20 has similar names and positions as DRPM accept with the addition of Whiteside as #1 (no wonder ESPN wanted their own stat).


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html

I hope you realize that your link is listing all NBA players in alphabetic order. :roll:

Noticed that too. 372nd in alphabetical score? Do better, Ricky.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

thedoper wrote:Basketball Reference has Rubio 289th on their defensive rating stat fyi. Don't really know which is better (or more accurate), but that puts him on par with Derrick Rose in terms of his D at the position. The top 20 has similar names and positions as DRPM accept with the addition of Whiteside as #1 (no wonder ESPN wanted their own stat).


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html

I hope you realize that your link is listing all NBA players in alphabetic order. :roll:

I should have noted that the columns are sortable for those that aren't used to this technology. Sort the columns based on Defensive rating and find him there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html#per_poss::31

Edited and did it for you.

thedoper wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

thedoper wrote:Basketball Reference has Rubio 289th on their defensive rating stat fyi. Don't really know which is better (or more accurate), but that puts him on par with Derrick Rose in terms of his D at the position. The top 20 has similar names and positions as DRPM accept with the addition of Whiteside as #1 (no wonder ESPN wanted their own stat).


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html

I hope you realize that your link is listing all NBA players in alphabetic order. :roll:

I should have noted that the columns are sortable for those that aren't used to this technology. Sort the columns based on Defensive rating and find him there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html#per_poss::31

Edited and did it for you.

You have to be careful using the Basketball Reference defensive rating stat as it relates to individual players. Except for that site, most other places use defensive rating in only a team context and it generally means points allowed per 100 possessions. In fact, even B-ball reference uses the traditional points per 100 possessions allowed in its team rankings and individual player On/Off stats.

Here is the caveat from the b-ball reference glossary on the individual Drtg stat:

"Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute"

Now, insofar as Rubio is part of a team that happens to sport the second worst team defensive rating in the league, it's easy to see how that spills over into his individual Drtg stat. Now if I thought all of our individual defenders were about equal in terms of their skills and abilities, he would deserve his proportionate share of the poor team performance. But I don't believe that. I think our poor team defensive rating is due largely to a subset of truly terrible defenders, poor coaching, and youth.

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

thedoper wrote:Basketball Reference has Rubio 289th on their defensive rating stat fyi. Don't really know which is better (or more accurate), but that puts him on par with Derrick Rose in terms of his D at the position. The top 20 has similar names and positions as DRPM accept with the addition of Whiteside as #1 (no wonder ESPN wanted their own stat).


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html

I hope you realize that your link is listing all NBA players in alphabetic order. :roll:

I should have noted that the columns are sortable for those that aren't used to this technology. Sort the columns based on Defensive rating and find him there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html#per_poss::31

Edited and did it for you.

You have to be careful using the Basketball Reference defensive rating stat as it relates to individual players. Except for that site, most other places use defensive rating in only a team context and it generally means points allowed per 100 possessions. In fact, even B-ball reference uses the traditional points per 100 possessions allowed in its team rankings and individual player On/Off stats.

Here is the caveat from the b-ball reference glossary on the individual Drtg stat:

"Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute"

Now, insofar as Rubio is part of a team that happens to sport the second worst team defensive rating in the league, it's easy to see how that spills over into his individual Drtg stat. Now if I thought all of our individual defenders were about equal in terms of their skills and abilities, he would deserve his proportionate share of the poor team performance. But I don't believe that. I think our poor team defensive rating is due largely to a subset of truly terrible defenders, poor coaching, and youth.

I hear you and agree with you analysis of Drtg its shortcomings. My point was that you get a nice top 20 NBA defenders from defensive rating too. What about him being approximately 15th-20th in the league among PGs (equal positioning as defensive rating) in Defensive win shares and in Defensive box plus minus? (I get that we don't win on the win shares bit)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_advanced.html#advanced::21
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_advanced.html#advanced::26

There are other advanced stats placing him where the eye test truly seems to put him. DRPM seems to be the only stat that makes him a dominant defensive PG. I'm fine citing the nuanced problems with certain advanced stats.DRPM has its shortcomings too. DRPM as far as I understand it is and individuals defensive metrics relative to their own team defensive average. This makes sense to inflate Rubios standing since we are obviously complete horseshit defensively in our second unit. The overall point is that I don't see a dominant player in any aspect of Rubio's game. I also don't see a defensive gem in a group of poor defenders. I see a good to average player on both sides of the ball who plays with heart and passion, two things I respect about him.

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:Every time the Rubio issue is brought up I think it is fair to say that I don't hate him or his game. I feel quite simply that his weaknesses are as significant as his strengths which is why I agree on the assessment that he is somewhere around the 15th best PG in the league. I can reiterate scenarios where I think we could or may want to explore other options than Rubio.

1. Signing or trading for a PG who is better than Rubio - If we could acquire a top 10 pg I say go for it. Right now Conley is the only guy I've mentioned who may be realistic in this area and who I would move Rubio for

2. Drafting a top tier PG and let him develop along side Rubio - I am all in on this even to solve the issue of having no viable back up (sorry Tyus)

I've never said he sucks. All around he is very average, being great at some things and being not so great at others.

I've been somewhat impressed with Tyus actually and while his defense isn't good it's come along and he has had some moments on that end. Dude is a 19 year old playing mostly with young players some of them are barely NBA players and he does a pretty decent job. Oh and he can hit 3's which is a big deal for this team. I'm not opposed to adding more talent at PG but Tyus isn't chopped liver either.

Sorry I should have clarified. I think Tyus's eventual peak is a solid back up. I just don't think he's there yet but I could see it happening. I'd like someone who could legitimately compete for starting minutes as a back up and that may require a bit more talent than what I see in Tyus. But maybe he makes a huge leap next year. Great problem to have.

I did understand your position I just think it's possible that about a year from now we start looking at Tyus and think, "Hey Tyus is a pretty good player as a backup." It feels like some people have just made up their minds because of his physical limitations and don't give him credit for what he seems to do well. It feels like he is a guy just written off not worthy of being developed. That seems strange to me as much as I want to we aren't competing for a championship next year and I think Tyus has shown enough SO FAR to make me think he is worth being developed as the backup. If the Wolves don't bring in a top level talent at PG in the draft then adding a youngish PG that plays rugged defense and has some clue how to run and offense would make a lot of sense.

And how refreshing is it to have a PG who has a floater in his arsenal? Ricky really needs to add that to his toolbox...

PG will be an interesting position next year. Smitch did not play Rubio any where near the minutes he could have. Was it for injury prevention? Developing LaVine at PG? Tanking? Stupidity?

Besides KAT's AMAZING rookie season, Zach's growth towards the end of the season has been a very pleasant surprise. As everyone has said, SG is his natural position. But his ability to handle the ball would allow a coach to give Zach the backup PG minutes (in addition to starting SG), which would give Wiggins a few minutes at SG as well. But the coach could also use Tyus as Ricky's backup (or a vet PG acquired this offseason).

Whatever the eventual outcome, I like that the new coach has flexibility at the point with Ricky, Tyus, Zach and probably another vet PG acquired this offseason.

monsterpile wrote:

I did understand your position I just think it's possible that about a year from now we start looking at Tyus and think, "Hey Tyus is a pretty good player as a backup." It feels like some people have just made up their minds because of his physical limitations and don't give him credit for what he seems to do well. It feels like he is a guy just written off not worthy of being developed. That seems strange to me as much as I want to we aren't competing for a championship next year and I think Tyus has shown enough SO FAR to make me think he is worth being developed as the backup. If the Wolves don't bring in a top level talent at PG in the draft then adding a youngish PG that plays rugged defense and has some clue how to run and offense would make a lot of sense.

I definitely believe that many people had their minds made up on Tyus before he played a minute. The opinion was anyone who thought he might be an okay player was just a "blind homer" and if Tyus wasn't from MN, nobody would be talking about him. Except....he was nationally a consensus mid to late 1st round pick after only one year in college. And I don't think the last draft was a "weak draft" considering how well many of the top tier guys have done so far.

Tyus has suprised at every level. He performed well in the D league. And now he's playing decent in the NBA. Is he a starter? No - not at age 19 he's not. Can he be a starter some day? IDK. But if people were okay with Lorenzo Brown being a back up - why not Tyus?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jonesty01&p2=brownlo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Carlos Danger wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

I did understand your position I just think it's possible that about a year from now we start looking at Tyus and think, "Hey Tyus is a pretty good player as a backup." It feels like some people have just made up their minds because of his physical limitations and don't give him credit for what he seems to do well. It feels like he is a guy just written off not worthy of being developed. That seems strange to me as much as I want to we aren't competing for a championship next year and I think Tyus has shown enough SO FAR to make me think he is worth being developed as the backup. If the Wolves don't bring in a top level talent at PG in the draft then adding a youngish PG that plays rugged defense and has some clue how to run and offense would make a lot of sense.

I definitely believe that many people had their minds made up on Tyus before he played a minute. The opinion was anyone who thought he might be an okay player was just a "blind homer" and if Tyus wasn't from MN, nobody would be talking about him. Except....he was nationally a consensus mid to late 1st round pick after only one year in college. And I don't think the last draft was a "weak draft" considering how well many of the top tier guys have done so far.

Tyus has suprised at every level. He performed well in the D league. And now he's playing decent in the NBA. Is he a starter? No - not at age 19 he's not. Can he be a starter some day? IDK. But if people were okay with Lorenzo Brown being a back up - why not Tyus?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jonesty01&p2=brownlo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

The reason why Lorenzo Brown was so beloved is because it was his acquisition that led to FINALLY moving LaVine to play more shooting guard late last year. And to be honest, almost anyone looked better at PG than LaVine, who simply doesn't have the instincts for the position IMO. At SG, we saw what Zach was capable of in the last 10 or 15 games. I think once we got a closer look at Brown's actual skills beyond the benefits reaped of moving Zach off the ball, the shine wore off a bit. He's one of these guys that looks the part, but then ended up being a little below average at everything.

In terms of Tyus Jones, I think he can grow into a capable backup PG. He's an even more natural PG than Brown and certainly appears to have enough skill and craftiness to effectively run an offense and put the ball in the hoop when needed. I just thought we paid too high of a price for him. Three second rounders is a lot to give up for a late-ish 1st round pick.

Q12543 wrote:
The reason why Lorenzo Brown was so beloved is because it was his acquisition that led to FINALLY moving LaVine to play more shooting guard late last year. And to be honest, almost anyone looked better at PG than LaVine, who simply doesn't have the instincts for the position IMO. At SG, we saw what Zach was capable of in the last 10 or 15 games. I think once we got a closer look at Brown's actual skills beyond the benefits reaped of moving Zach off the ball, the shine wore off a bit. He's one of these guys that looks the part, but then ended up being a little below average at everything.

In terms of Tyus Jones, I think he can grow into a capable backup PG. He's an even more natural PG than Brown and certainly appears to have enough skill and craftiness to effectively run an offense and put the ball in the hoop when needed. I just thought we paid too high of a price for him. Three second rounders is a lot to give up for a late-ish 1st round pick.

That's a fair take Q. But Flip (Rest in Peace) was not afraid to go get a guy he liked. He over paid for the likes of Payne and KG (both of which have additional back stories that contributed to over paying). But in the case of Tyus....I see you point, but I also see the other side as well. If "your guy" is there, then go get him. The 2nd round picks are for the most part just "currency" as the majority of the players taken with those picks do not ever end up being contributors in the NBA. In other words, the picks are worth more (for trading) than the players actually selected in most cases.