CoolBreeze44 wrote:Q, I know he struggled in Texas, but the game doesn't seem to big for him. He has good handles, great quickness, and IQ. If anything I think he is playing too much in a box. In other words, trying not to make mistakes and limiting his ad lib. If he could just let him talent flow I think it would help a lot. Those problems you mentioned over the last two games would follow him to any position he plays.
What is he though? I can't get a beat on what his real natural strength or position should be. His shot looks smooth, but it doesn't go in. He appears to have poise, yet he turns the ball over a lot. He has a ton of speed, but his inclination is to juke and pull up for a jumper. He is long and athletic, but rarely gets steals.
I'm not ruling anything out with the kid, but I thought Flip was going to give him the Shabazz treatment this season and let him learn in practice and then give him a stint in the D-league at some point. Thrusting him into the starting lineup....Whoa.
You just summed up Wes Johnson. Congratulations.
Zach LaVine is the opposite of Wes Johnson. Wes was NBA-ready coming out of college, but lacked (and lacks) heart. Zach has all the heart in the world, but is not NBA-ready. He's going to struggle early...maybe even for a couple years... but Zach at 13 is a steal compared to Wes at three. I'll take Zach.
How does anybody know if Zach LaVine has "heart?" What does that even mean?
The guy has played in only 44 games beyond high school and has been ineffective in most of them.
It's an intangible quality, abe, I admit. To me, it's a burning desire to win that drives a player to go all out every time he is on the court...a burning desire to be better. I see it in Zach, and I never saw it in Wes. I see it in Shabazz...I don't always see it in Kevin Martin. I'm hoping to see more of it in Wiggins and Bennett...the jury is still out on these two. Sometimes I see it in guys who just don't have the talent level to succeed in the NBA, like Turiaf or Stiemsma.
Physical attributes, talent and heart are the three characteristics I use to evaluate a player...intelligence also, I guess. It's really easy to compare the physical attributes and talent level of players, but heart is more difficult. Abe, I hear you saying that you don't see it yet in Zach, or don't see a difference in this intangible quality between Zach and Wes. I believe I do see a big difference between the two, and it's eventually going to make a big difference between the success of the two players. Maybe I'm wrong though, because I fully admit that evaluating whether a guy is a good shooter or not is much easier to determine than evaluating what he has inside.
What do others think?
Granted, Wes' smiling was infuriating and seemed to mask any semblance of "heart." But I just don't see anything special with effort from LaVine. Or anything at all.
The guy regressed as a college freshman and was not able to separate from vastly inferior (athletically) teammates and opponents. And he's done nothing of relevance yet in the NBA. He's still young... so we'll see. I guess.
Abe, I have been pretty impressed with LaVine. He is not killing the team when he plays. He certainly could be more aggressive, but he doesn't have much experience. I think this is a grreat growing opportunity. This run will help him improve next offseason is my guess. I would love to see him be the primary backup when Rubio returns. Maybe we could go back to him and Mo on the court at the same time.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Abe, I have been pretty impressed with LaVine. He is not killing the team when he plays. He certainly could be more aggressive, but he doesn't have much experience. I think this is a grreat growing opportunity. This run will help him improve next offseason is my guess. I would love to see him be the primary backup when Rubio returns. Maybe we could go back to him and Mo on the court at the same time.
While I agree that it's good that he's getting run (need to figure out what they have with him)... I don't see how being the worst player who's started at PG this season for any NBA team can be impressive in any way.
I haven't seen one thing that stands out as a "Wow. He's raw but THAT is something that very few guys can do"...
I hear your points, abe. It's difficult to measure what is inside a player, except in obvious cases like Wes. My initial beliefs about Zach's "heart" may turn out to be misguided. In fact, I watched him a lot at UCLA, and his tendency to float on the court and disappear at times made me question him...I was not in favor of the pick. But I have seen a difference in the pro Zach vs. the college Zach, and now think he may have that burning desire to be better. If so, that quality combined with his incredible athleticism may make him a good NBA player.
But he is far from that now. I agree that he is the worst starting PG in the NBA right now. But I still applaud Flip's decision to start him. Some of my support for the decision is the "stealth tanking" involved in the move. I see us as a 40-win team with Ricky healthy, a 25-30 win team with Mo getting most of the PG minutes, and perhaps a 20-win team with Zach getting most of the minutes...I see that much of a difference in their impact on a team. Given the choice between a 25-30 win team and a 20-win team, give me the 20-win team and the better draft choice. Especially if it means we are accelerating the development of a guy that I think is going to be pretty good in 2-3 years.
The only reasons I would choose to not start Zach would be these:
1) If I thought his first-year failures might kill his confidence...I don't see this happening.
2) If I thought his starting was limiting the development of Wiggins. I don't know that Mo would be any more beneficial to Drew's development than Zach is.
Go out and get a 3rd PG to limit Mo's minutes, but keep starting Zach...and hurry back, Ricky.
On LaVine, I don't have much faith in him as a PG, and never really did. I thought we were a 25-30 win team before Ricky's injury. We look like a 15-20 win team with LaVine running the show. That's not a knock on the kid, because it's not like this is a situation he has prepared a lot to play, but it's obvious we're that bad right now and the West is brutal. I'd like to keep playing him, but get him more burn at the 2 and less at the 1. And that brings up Brewer.
Ugh, Corey Brewer has been my favorite Wolf (and for a time former wolf) since we drafted him. I'd really hate to see him go. I see that it makes sense given our roster. I'd rather trade Bud any day of the week, but nobody's picking up that contract. I'd definitely think about moving Martin first. Plus, wouldn't Martin fetch more on the market? A scorer off the bench type of guy? That should get us more than Brewer, right?
I feel like Corey would still have a really positive influence on the young guys if we kept him though. He works so hard and really enjoys the game and seems like such a great guy. I know he's getting minutes at the wing positions we could give to other guys, including LaVine at the 2.
If we're moving Brewer (and I'd much rather move Martin now that I think about it), I'd also like to get a guy like Kevin Ollie to come in and just run the offense to help LaVine and Wiggins get better on the wing playing off the ball. That's gotta be the priority this year. And I'd love it if we did that with Brewer helping out on the wings, from the bench, and in all of the other ways that these players influence each other on and off the court.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Abe, I have been pretty impressed with LaVine. He is not killing the team when he plays. He certainly could be more aggressive, but he doesn't have much experience. I think this is a grreat growing opportunity. This run will help him improve next offseason is my guess. I would love to see him be the primary backup when Rubio returns. Maybe we could go back to him and Mo on the court at the same time.
While I agree that it's good that he's getting run (need to figure out what they have with him)... I don't see how being the worst player who's started at PG this season for any NBA team can be impressive in any way.
I haven't seen one thing that stands out as a "Wow. He's raw but THAT is something that very few guys can do"...
bleedspeed177 wrote:Abe, I have been pretty impressed with LaVine. He is not killing the team when he plays. He certainly could be more aggressive, but he doesn't have much experience. I think this is a grreat growing opportunity. This run will help him improve next offseason is my guess. I would love to see him be the primary backup when Rubio returns. Maybe we could go back to him and Mo on the court at the same time.
While I agree that it's good that he's getting run (need to figure out what they have with him)... I don't see how being the worst player who's started at PG this season for any NBA team can be impressive in any way.
I haven't seen one thing that stands out as a "Wow. He's raw but THAT is something that very few guys can do"...
Have you?
So is he making you miss Johnny Flynn?
I think Flynn was a better PG. I don't know if he was the better player though.
[Note: Flynn wasn't very good. But he was a PnR point guard who didn't get to run many of those in the pros. We shouldn't have been surprised.]
Saying Lavine is the worst starting PG in the league means basically nothing. I don't know why that's a consideration when evaluating where he is right now. Its like if we called up some D-league dude and started him at PG we would be evaluating him based on other starting PGs...that doesn't make much sense.
What I think about Zach is I'm impressed he doesn't look completely lost out there. I want to see him play another 3-5 games and I'll say more. Its hard to really hard to say too much in so few games especially against the level of PG he has played against. Dallas was the first game I saw him look frustrated which is kind of impressive. My stance is let's see but there have been some good sign especially at his age.
When I watch Zach run the point right now, he looks like someone who is constantly thinking about what coach wants him to do. He isn't taking a lot of risks, every move is careful and thought out and he lacks real assertiveness. It is similar to Wes Johnson except I doubt any of Smiley's coaches were telling him to hold back. I am sure that Flip is preaching patience to Zach and trying to keep his game harnessed right now. No reason to let a player so raw go out, do what he wants, and develop a bunch of poor habits. There are many times where I am wishing that he would blow by his defender and be more aggressive but I think he is doing what Flip tells him to at the moment. At this rate Zachs development might be slow but I still think he will be a very nice player.
monsterpile wrote:Saying Lavine is the worst starting PG in the league means basically nothing. I don't know why that's a consideration when evaluating where he is right now. Its like if we called up some D-league dude and started him at PG we would be evaluating him based on other starting PGs...that doesn't make much sense.
What I think about Zach is I'm impressed he doesn't look completely lost out there. I want to see him play another 3-5 games and I'll say more. Its hard to really hard to say too much in so few games especially against the level of PG he has played against. Dallas was the first game I saw him look frustrated which is kind of impressive. My stance is let's see but there have been some good sign especially at his age.
If our standards for being "impressive" are "doesn't look completely lost out there"... yikes.
I think there's a great chance that the D League has PGs better than Z. LaVine.
