Minnesota Sports Forum

Thanks for bringing this back LST. At draft time Bazz was my top guy on the whole board and I was ecstatic that we got him. There is no reason Flip should have an incomplete grade simply for the stubbornness of Adelman. I am still a bit bitter about all of the media hyped warnings about Shabazz. I have yet to hear any of his critics in the media come out and say just how wrong they were about his attitude toward basketball. I really believe he has a special future ahead of him and am very excited to see his progress moving forward. Dieng has been more than a pleasant surprise as well. Flip did a great job with the 9 pick as far as I can tell. Unfortunately these two been the only surprise positives on the squad this year.

I don't think it is fair to compare 1 pick for 2 when we also would have added a guy at 26 had we not made the original deal (could have drafted Gobert in that spot for the best shot blocker in the class). I still would prefer CJ just from the standpoint that he is a better shooter than Bazz. CJ has only played 30 games himself, so I don't see how that is a big enough sample size to say we definitely got the better end of the deal. CJ would have given us another ball handler/shot creator for the long-term as the backup 2 which I think is more valuable than the post/transition player that Bazz is while fighting for minutes up against 2 veterans making almost 10 million combined. CJ was shooting 41.9% from 3 before the all-star break. We could have used that shooting on the second unit and since there is literally nobody there to play really (Shved entered the DNP-CD fairly early this year compared to last), he would have probably had a better chance to play over the situation Bazz is in. It's way too early to be making this kind of call for any of the players especially considering the sample size to this point. To me, CJ/Gobert is just as appealing for the future as Bazz/Dieng given what this team is lacking.

khans2k5 wrote:I don't think it is fair to compare 1 pick for 2 when we also would have added a guy at 26 had we not made the original deal (could have drafted Gobert in that spot for the best shot blocker in the class). I still would prefer CJ just from the standpoint that he is a better shooter than Bazz. CJ has only played 30 games himself, so I don't see how that is a big enough sample size to say we definitely got the better end of the deal. CJ would have given us another ball handler/shot creator for the long-term as the backup 2 which I think is more valuable than the post/transition player that Bazz is while fighting for minutes up against 2 veterans making almost 10 million combined. CJ was shooting 41.9% from 3 before the all-star break. We could have used that shooting on the second unit and since there is literally nobody there to play really (Shved entered the DNP-CD fairly early this year compared to last), he would have probably had a better chance to play over the situation Bazz is in. It's way too early to be making this kind of call for any of the players especially considering the sample size to this point. To me, CJ/Gobert is just as appealing for the future as Bazz/Dieng given what this team is lacking.

I think it's absolutely fair to analyze Flip's deal as a 2 for 1, because that is exactly what happened. Flip traded the 9th pick for the 14th and the 21st, so that's how the deal should be analyzed. The fact of the matter is when the Wolves turn came up at 9, he had a choice of keeping the pick ( and likely taking CJ) or trading it for Utah's 2 picks. The 26th pick was a separate deal and has nothing to do with Utah, and needs to be analyzed by itself...not in connection with the Utah deal.

I also am not in agreement with your assertion that CJ is clearly a better shooter than Muhammad. Their 3-point stats in college were identical at 37.7%. The difference is CJ was shooting against slow white guys in the Patriot League, while Muhammad was shooting against Pac 12 defenders. Muhammad hasn't gotten the green light to shoot threes yet, but based on their college stats, there's no evidence to conclude that he won't be as effective as CJ from beyond the arc.

longstrangetrip wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:I don't think it is fair to compare 1 pick for 2 when we also would have added a guy at 26 had we not made the original deal (could have drafted Gobert in that spot for the best shot blocker in the class). I still would prefer CJ just from the standpoint that he is a better shooter than Bazz. CJ has only played 30 games himself, so I don't see how that is a big enough sample size to say we definitely got the better end of the deal. CJ would have given us another ball handler/shot creator for the long-term as the backup 2 which I think is more valuable than the post/transition player that Bazz is while fighting for minutes up against 2 veterans making almost 10 million combined. CJ was shooting 41.9% from 3 before the all-star break. We could have used that shooting on the second unit and since there is literally nobody there to play really (Shved entered the DNP-CD fairly early this year compared to last), he would have probably had a better chance to play over the situation Bazz is in. It's way too early to be making this kind of call for any of the players especially considering the sample size to this point. To me, CJ/Gobert is just as appealing for the future as Bazz/Dieng given what this team is lacking.

I think it's absolutely fair to analyze Flip's deal as a 2 for 1, because that is exactly what happened. Flip traded the 9th pick for the 14th and the 21st, so that's how the deal should be analyzed. The fact of the matter is when the Wolves turn came up at 9, he had a choice of keeping the pick ( and likely taking CJ) or trading it for Utah's 2 picks. The 26th pick was a separate deal and has nothing to do with Utah, and needs to be analyzed by itself...not in connection with the Utah deal.

I also am not in agreement with your assertion that CJ is clearly a better shooter than Muhammad. Their 3-point stats in college were identical at 37.7%. The difference is CJ was shooting against slow white guys in the Patriot League, while Muhammad was shooting against Pac 12 defenders. Muhammad hasn't gotten the green light to shoot threes yet, but based on their college stats, there's no evidence to conclude that he won't be as effective as CJ from beyond the arc.

Perfectly said.

A difference you fail to mention is that CJ was the main guy that had to be guarded on his team whereas Bazz was on a Pac 12 team loaded with talent that the other teams had to guard. CJ had a career 56.3% TS% and 50.1% eFG%. Bazz was at 52.8% and 48.7% with McCullum still taking almost 2 more 3's a game and more shots overall than Bazz. CJ was an 82.5% FT shooter in college to Bazz's 71.1% on while CJ took slightly more attempts per game. CJ was just a better shooter in college and he was on pace to not even make this a debate before he got injured his senior year (almost a 63% TS% and 58% eFG% with the other teams trying to shut him down as the primary guy). Not to mention the fact the CJ had to have a poor sophomore season for this to even be close as well. The only shooters that need a green light from the coach to shoot are poor ones.

Also, the 26th pick does need to be included in the analysis because it was traded because the Utah trade netted two picks. Flip doesn't trade 26 if he doesn't also pick up 21. The Utah trade, while not directly moving the 26th pick, led to Flip trading 26 as he did not want three rookies on the roster, so it should be considered when talking about our picks. We came in to the draft with 2 first round picks and left with two first round picks. It is fair game to debate which combination of players in both scenarios were available and to judge the draft based on that. We don't trade 26 for the right to dump Malcolm Lee if we don't get the second pick from Utah.

Gorgui Dieng by himself may end up winning this trade in Flip's favor. His impact in the two games he's started plus the spot minutes here and there throughout the season have been pretty impressive. I remember myself and Lipoli back on the ESPN forum discussing taking Dieng in the lottery due to how much promise we saw in him (Lip, If that wasn't you I apologize for name-dropping). Gorgui keeps this type of play up and it's a no-brainer who won the trade, 26 pick or no 26 pick. Shabazz would be icing on the cake.

I am happy with the picks. I wanted KCP and didn't want anything to do with CJ. I will stand by that. I think KCP has a better future then CJ. I really think the problem is how we resigned Budinger. I would have rather had Ridnour on this team then him after drafting Shabazz.

I wish we had a coach that would help make them grow. Maybe both will progress in spite of there coach just like Rambis did for Love.

khans2k5 wrote:A difference you fail to mention is that CJ was the main guy that had to be guarded on his team whereas Bazz was on a Pac 12 team loaded with talent that the other teams had to guard. CJ had a career 56.3% TS% and 50.1% eFG%. Bazz was at 52.8% and 48.7% with McCullum still taking almost 2 more 3's a game and more shots overall than Bazz. CJ was an 82.5% FT shooter in college to Bazz's 71.1% on while CJ took slightly more attempts per game. CJ was just a better shooter in college and he was on pace to not even make this a debate before he got injured his senior year (almost a 63% TS% and 58% eFG% with the other teams trying to shut him down as the primary guy). Not to mention the fact the CJ had to have a poor sophomore season for this to even be close as well. The only shooters that need a green light from the coach to shoot are poor ones.

Also, the 26th pick does need to be included in the analysis because it was traded because the Utah trade netted two picks. Flip doesn't trade 26 if he doesn't also pick up 21. The Utah trade, while not directly moving the 26th pick, led to Flip trading 26 as he did not want three rookies on the roster, so it should be considered when talking about our picks. We came in to the draft with 2 first round picks and left with two first round picks. It is fair game to debate which combination of players in both scenarios were available and to judge the draft based on that. We don't trade 26 for the right to dump Malcolm Lee if we don't get the second pick from Utah.

I have tried to get my head around your assertion that the 26th pick has to be factored into this analysis, khans, but I'm just not getting there. It's clear to me that Flip had two choices when his turn came up: select CJ, or trade the pick to Utah for 14 and 21. So I'm going to continue to analyze Flip's draft as CJ vs. Muhammad plus Dieng, and leave Malcolm Lee out of the equation.

I get your point that CJ attracted more attention than Shabazz, because he was clearly the man. But having watched a lot of UCLA games that year, I can assure you that as the consensus best prep player the previous year, defenses were designed first to stop Shabazz. And he faced much better defenses than CJ. I don't know if you have ever attended a Patriot League game in person, but with a daughter at Colgate for 4 years, I watched several basketball and football games. Unlike Pac 12 athletes, these guys are students first and athletes second. To me the quality of play was like a good suburban high school game. Shabazz might have scored 50 points a night if he had played a season in the Patriot League! And you can cherry pick seasons all you want to try to make a point, but the fact remains that CJ's and Muhammad's 3-point percentages for their college careers were identical. Kurt Rambis famously didn't allow Love to shoot threes his first year...nice decision! When next year's Wolves' coach takes the shackles off Shabazz, he will be able to show us his 3-point abilities.