I don't see the Knicks doing this deal. While their defense wasn't stellar in the regular season, they were one of the better defenses in the playoffs, but had trouble generating offense. Gobert won't help with that in the same way KAT would. I think they have plenty of size and paint defense with the guys they have now. And by the way, one could argue we need Gobert for all the glowing reasons you suggest the Knicks need him!Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 12:10 am This thread appears to have morphed from a “Rudy trade ideas” thread to a “reasons not to trade Rudy” thread.. I’ll try to take it back to its original purpose with the following trade idea:
Wolves trade: Gobert and Knight
Wolves receive: Quickley, Hartenstein, Fournier and Toppin
Why would the Knicks do this? The Knicks are in a win-now mode with a head coach who loves vets and defense and Gobert fits the bill. They’d be getting one of the League’s best defensive and rebounding centers along with young athletic center with upside while giving up only one important player from last season, Quickley. They’d still have their best player and one star, Brunson, and other core win-now players in Randle and Barrett. They’d still have two of their three most promising players in Grimes and Mitchell. And they’d be getting rid of Fournier and his salary. Toppin wasn’t a factor last season, averaging a rounder minutes a game and not producing much. Hartenstein was solid for the Knicks, but was still a bench player averaging around 20 minutes a game. Getting Gobert while keeping Mitchell would be a big positive for the Knicks.
Why should the Wolves consider it? They’d get a promising young PG who brings toughness and 3-point shooting to a team that definitely needs both. He’s a great complement to Ant because he can play off the ball as a spot up three-point shooter. He’d be another ball-handling shot-creator who could take some of the load off Ant and facilitate for Ant as well. He’d be the perfect heir to Conley. Hartenstein would be the sort of big TC should have pursued in lieu of trading the farm for Rudy. Toppin would be here one season and likely gone after that. Fournier would be a three-point shooter off the bench for us. In addition, the Wolves would have $7 million in additional room under the luxury tax threshold.
Ultimately this deal comes down to Gobert for Quickley.
The rest of the pieces are mainly salary filler. The Knicks benefit by getting rid of Fournier’s unproductive contract while the Wolves get some bench help in Hartenstein and perhaps some bench scoring from Fournier. I think it’s a win-win. The Knicks don’t really need Quickly. They have Brunson, Barrett, Hart, Grimes and Rose. So they’re set at the PG and SG positions.
Rudy trade ideas
Re: Rudy trade ideas
Re: Rudy trade ideas
I really like the Wizards as a trade target for either Rudy or KAT.kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:24 am If you really want to trade Rudy something like.
Rudy for Lonzo, Patrick Williams, Dalen Terry and a pick. (Rumors of a Williams, Vucevic and 2 1st last season what the bulls wanted for Rudy)
Rudy for Capela, Hunter and a 1st
Rudy for Hayward, Rozier and a 1st (pretty much a cap cutting move for the wolves)
Rudy for Ben Simmons and a 1st
Rudy and Prince for Gafford, Morris, Wright, Kispet, Davis and the wizards 1st this year top 5 protected
I think the wolves can get 1 pick and solid rotation pieces back for Rudy in general.
- WildWolf2813
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Re: Rudy trade ideas
Mitchell Robinson does everything we ask Rudy to do for $12 mil a year on a descending contract. Knicks would pass on this.Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 12:10 am This thread appears to have morphed from a “Rudy trade ideas” thread to a “reasons not to trade Rudy” thread.. I’ll try to take it back to its original purpose with the following trade idea:
Wolves trade: Gobert and Knight
Wolves receive: Quickley, Hartenstein, Fournier and Toppin
Why would the Knicks do this? The Knicks are in a win-now mode with a head coach who loves vets and defense and Gobert fits the bill. They’d be getting one of the League’s best defensive and rebounding centers along with young athletic center with upside while giving up only one important player from last season, Quickley. They’d still have their best player and one star, Brunson, and other core win-now players in Randle and Barrett. They’d still have two of their three most promising players in Grimes and Mitchell. And they’d be getting rid of Fournier and his salary. Toppin wasn’t a factor last season, averaging a rounder minutes a game and not producing much. Hartenstein was solid for the Knicks, but was still a bench player averaging around 20 minutes a game. Getting Gobert while keeping Mitchell would be a big positive for the Knicks.
Why should the Wolves consider it? They’d get a promising young PG who brings toughness and 3-point shooting to a team that definitely needs both. He’s a great complement to Ant because he can play off the ball as a spot up three-point shooter. He’d be another ball-handling shot-creator who could take some of the load off Ant and facilitate for Ant as well. He’d be the perfect heir to Conley. Hartenstein would be the sort of big TC should have pursued in lieu of trading the farm for Rudy. Toppin would be here one season and likely gone after that. Fournier would be a three-point shooter off the bench for us. In addition, the Wolves would have $7 million in additional room under the luxury tax threshold.
Ultimately this deal comes down to Gobert for Quickley.
The rest of the pieces are mainly salary filler. The Knicks benefit by getting rid of Fournier’s unproductive contract while the Wolves get some bench help in Hartenstein and perhaps some bench scoring from Fournier. I think it’s a win-win. The Knicks don’t really need Quickly. They have Brunson, Barrett, Hart, Grimes and Rose. So they’re set at the PG and SG positions.
Re: Rudy trade ideas
You’re probably right. However, acquiring Rudy would also position the Knicks to trade Mitchell Robinson for significant value in return. So I could still see the Knicks going for the deal, which would allow them to dump Fournier’s contract on us, acquire Rudy and trade Mitchell Robinson. Note that Robinson has had a hard time staying healthy. Also keep in mind that he played only 59 games last season and averaged 27 minutes per game. He was a 48.4% free-throw shooter. Assuming the Knicks are in a won-now mode, which I believe they are, the Gobert deal I posed above isn’t totally unrealistic. Rudy is a high-IQ vet, which is precisely the type of player Thibs likes to coach. When you break down and stack the benefits, you see more clearly why the Knicks might be interested in doing the deal:WildWolf2813 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 9:56 amMitchell Robinson does everything we ask Rudy to do for $12 mil a year on a descending contract. Knicks would pass on this.Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 12:10 am This thread appears to have morphed from a “Rudy trade ideas” thread to a “reasons not to trade Rudy” thread.. I’ll try to take it back to its original purpose with the following trade idea:
Wolves trade: Gobert and Knight
Wolves receive: Quickley, Hartenstein, Fournier and Toppin
Why would the Knicks do this? The Knicks are in a win-now mode with a head coach who loves vets and defense and Gobert fits the bill. They’d be getting one of the League’s best defensive and rebounding centers along with young athletic center with upside while giving up only one important player from last season, Quickley. They’d still have their best player and one star, Brunson, and other core win-now players in Randle and Barrett. They’d still have two of their three most promising players in Grimes and Mitchell. And they’d be getting rid of Fournier and his salary. Toppin wasn’t a factor last season, averaging a rounder minutes a game and not producing much. Hartenstein was solid for the Knicks, but was still a bench player averaging around 20 minutes a game. Getting Gobert while keeping Mitchell would be a big positive for the Knicks.
Why should the Wolves consider it? They’d get a promising young PG who brings toughness and 3-point shooting to a team that definitely needs both. He’s a great complement to Ant because he can play off the ball as a spot up three-point shooter. He’d be another ball-handling shot-creator who could take some of the load off Ant and facilitate for Ant as well. He’d be the perfect heir to Conley. Hartenstein would be the sort of big TC should have pursued in lieu of trading the farm for Rudy. Toppin would be here one season and likely gone after that. Fournier would be a three-point shooter off the bench for us. In addition, the Wolves would have $7 million in additional room under the luxury tax threshold.
Ultimately this deal comes down to Gobert for Quickley.
The rest of the pieces are mainly salary filler. The Knicks benefit by getting rid of Fournier’s unproductive contract while the Wolves get some bench help in Hartenstein and perhaps some bench scoring from Fournier. I think it’s a win-win. The Knicks don’t really need Quickly. They have Brunson, Barrett, Hart, Grimes and Rose. So they’re set at the PG and SG positions.
1. Dumping Fournier’s contract
2. Getting a savvy veteran defensive center who will be a better fit for Thibs and more likely to stay on the court than MR.
3. Opening up the opportunity to trade Mitchell Robinson, who would likely bring back more than we can get for Rudy
The Knicks would get all of that while giving up only one valuable asset named Quickley - a guy they like but don’t need given the fact that they have Grimes along with vets Brunson, Barrett, Hart and Rose. And again, they could add significant talent by dealing Mitchell Robinson. Getting Knight from the Wolves would provide the Knicks with depth and youth up front.
Re: Rudy trade ideas
I think, if the Wolves don’t move KAT this offseason, they wait until next offseason to move Rudy, unless someone blows them away with an offer. The reason I think they wait is that I think Rudy needs to rehabilitate his value around the league, before the Wolves move on from him. I think Lip thinks he’s in decline, but Rudy started this past season dragging ass and perhaps injured after playing overseas, then had to get used to a bunch of new teammates… he was pretty good after the All Star break. He needs to remind folks of the player he’s been before coming to the Wolves, though no one is worth what the Wolves gave up in terms of draft capital:
3× NBA All-Star (2020–2022)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2019–2021)
3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019, 2021)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2022)
NBA rebounding leader (2022)
3× NBA All-Star (2020–2022)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2019–2021)
3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019, 2021)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2022)
NBA rebounding leader (2022)
Re: Rudy trade ideas
Magic: Cole Anthony, Wendell Carter Jr., Caleb Houstan, #11
MN: Gobert
Unlikely but not a terrible idea for the Magic. Fultz, Wagner, and Banchero is a nice young trio. Add Gobert, 20mil+ Cap, Harris, Isaac, Suggs, #6 pick. That is a competitive team in the East.
They are a team to target that has to thin out and push to be competitive.
MN: Gobert
Unlikely but not a terrible idea for the Magic. Fultz, Wagner, and Banchero is a nice young trio. Add Gobert, 20mil+ Cap, Harris, Isaac, Suggs, #6 pick. That is a competitive team in the East.
They are a team to target that has to thin out and push to be competitive.
Re: Rudy trade ideas
Yeah, I agree that this summer is the wrong time to move Gobert. I think we tend to undervalue Rudy here, and I'm afraid we would be selling (way) low if we moved him this summer. In my opinion, Rudy impacts the game on the defensive end the way an elite offensive player impacts the game on the offensive end. That's too important an asset to give away without a proper return.Sundog wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 2:48 pm I think, if the Wolves don’t move KAT this offseason, they wait until next offseason to move Rudy, unless someone blows them away with an offer. The reason I think they wait is that I think Rudy needs to rehabilitate his value around the league, before the Wolves move on from him. I think Lip thinks he’s in decline, but Rudy started this past season dragging ass and perhaps injured after playing overseas, then had to get used to a bunch of new teammates… he was pretty good after the All Star break. He needs to remind folks of the player he’s been before coming to the Wolves, though no one is worth what the Wolves gave up in terms of draft capital:
3× NBA All-Star (2020–2022)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2019–2021)
3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019, 2021)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2022)
NBA rebounding leader (2022)
Re: Rudy trade ideas
I don’t mean to undervalue Rudy’s value. I just don’t think his value is optimized with the Wolves and more importantly I don’t think he optimizes the value of the other key players on the Wolves roster. KAT is a center - an all-star caliber center. He’s not a PF because he can’t guard in space against modern mobile NBA PFs. Moreover, he reduces the room Ant has to operate in the paint, which is Ant’s biggest strength. Today’s modern NBA is no place for two starting centers, especially when one of them can’t hit shots more than one foot from the rim. I think he has far more value to other teams that don’t already have an all-star caliber center and I would think NBA executives around the League know that.FNG wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 3:23 pmYeah, I agree that this summer is the wrong time to move Gobert. I think we tend to undervalue Rudy here, and I'm afraid we would be selling (way) low if we moved him this summer. In my opinion, Rudy impacts the game on the defensive end the way an elite offensive player impacts the game on the offensive end. That's too important an asset to give away without a proper return.Sundog wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 2:48 pm I think, if the Wolves don’t move KAT this offseason, they wait until next offseason to move Rudy, unless someone blows them away with an offer. The reason I think they wait is that I think Rudy needs to rehabilitate his value around the league, before the Wolves move on from him. I think Lip thinks he’s in decline, but Rudy started this past season dragging ass and perhaps injured after playing overseas, then had to get used to a bunch of new teammates… he was pretty good after the All Star break. He needs to remind folks of the player he’s been before coming to the Wolves, though no one is worth what the Wolves gave up in terms of draft capital:
3× NBA All-Star (2020–2022)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2019–2021)
3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019, 2021)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2022)
NBA rebounding leader (2022)
You mentioned Rudy’s positive attributes. While I disagree that his defense has the same impact as an elite offensive player, I agree that he’s a terrific paint defender and elite rebounder. You and I know that, which means every front office executive knows it. Most NBA executives and scouts are smart enough to know that Rudy’s main problem with the Wolves last season was fit. And they’re aware of all the other caveats you mentioned. In other words, improved play from Rudy next season will probably have no more than a small marginal impact on his value around the League. However, if the caliber of his play declines, then front office executives might start to conclude that his physical abilities are declining. If he suffers a major injury, his value will go to zero and we’ll be stuck with his $40+ million salary for two more seasons. Right now, I would think NBA front office executives have same view of Rudy that you have. Why wouldn’t they? Therefore, I don’t see any reason to wait.
Re: Rudy trade ideas
That’s the sort of plausible Gobert deal I envision that could help avoid the luxury tax cliff and bring in some valuable assets. Orlando has three picks this year - ## 6, 11 and 36. They’re already overloaded with young talent and I don’t think they can or would want to absorb three more draft prospects. They’re also overloaded at the PG position with young PGs.TheFuture wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 2:56 pm Magic: Cole Anthony, Wendell Carter Jr., Caleb Houstan, #11
MN: Gobert
Unlikely but not a terrible idea for the Magic. Fultz, Wagner, and Banchero is a nice young trio. Add Gobert, 20mil+ Cap, Harris, Isaac, Suggs, #6 pick. That is a competitive team in the East.
They are a team to target that has to thin out and push to be competitive.
I think the following would be a better and equally, if not more, plausible Orlando trade for Gobert:
Orlando Gets: Gobert + Knight + the Wolves #53 pick in this year’s draft
Wolves Get:
- Carter Jr.
- Suggs
- Picks 11 and 36 in this year’s draft
Why would Orland do it? To get a defensive vet who would complement Panchero, their offensive-oriented budding all-star PF. They’d still have a bevy of young talent along with the #6 pick in this year’s draft to take another talented prospect or to trade for a really good veteran. Orlando wouldn’t be giving up much. Carter is good, but Rudy would be an upgrade. Knight would give them young athletic big with upside. Suggs is the least of their many young PGs.
What’s in it for MN? We’d save $21.8 million in 2024, which would give the Wolves plenty of room under the luxury tax 2nd apron to keep KAT, re-sign Naz and NAW, extend Ant and Jaden, and fill out the entire roster with good players without risking any penalties. We’d have a 2-season test run with Suggs to see if he can become Conley’s successor. And Wendell Carter is a very solid big whose salary actually goes down slightly over the remainder of his contract. He’d be insurance in the event the Wolves want to trade KAT next summer. He could also be a very good trade asset. I don’t know that we could get both #11 and 36, but I would think we could get #11 or get #36 along with a future protected 1st. Even pick 36 should have a lot of value in hands of TC if he’s all he’s cracked up to be.
Re: Rudy trade ideas
As Kekgeek has thoroughly documented, our defense was atrocious when Rudy wasn't in the game. Lip needs to outline to us how we ensure we don't fall off a cliff defensively if Rudy gets moved!FNG wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 3:23 pmYeah, I agree that this summer is the wrong time to move Gobert. I think we tend to undervalue Rudy here, and I'm afraid we would be selling (way) low if we moved him this summer. In my opinion, Rudy impacts the game on the defensive end the way an elite offensive player impacts the game on the offensive end. That's too important an asset to give away without a proper return.Sundog wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 2:48 pm I think, if the Wolves don’t move KAT this offseason, they wait until next offseason to move Rudy, unless someone blows them away with an offer. The reason I think they wait is that I think Rudy needs to rehabilitate his value around the league, before the Wolves move on from him. I think Lip thinks he’s in decline, but Rudy started this past season dragging ass and perhaps injured after playing overseas, then had to get used to a bunch of new teammates… he was pretty good after the All Star break. He needs to remind folks of the player he’s been before coming to the Wolves, though no one is worth what the Wolves gave up in terms of draft capital:
3× NBA All-Star (2020–2022)
All-NBA Second Team (2017)
3× All-NBA Third Team (2019–2021)
3× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2018, 2019, 2021)
6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2017–2022)
NBA rebounding leader (2022)
But in Lip's defense, no matter what Ant says publicly or whether he makes some goodwill gesture by traveling to France this summer, none of that means shit if he refuses to pass the ball to Rudy. The lack of on-court chemistry between Ant and Rudy really hurts the offense and I don't think it gets better. And even if Ant becomes a more willing passer, Rudy needs a clinician to get him the ball in places where he doesn't fumble it away or get stripped. Ant is just not at that level yet.
It's a real dilemma....