Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Kris Dunn out 4-6 weeks with an MCL. I believe Laurie is out for a while too. I was hoping these guys would have come out and outshined the wolves to make Thibs look bad.

Zach is doing his best to make him look bad all by himself. My goodness is he skilled offensively. Seriously I hate to always rip Wig, but it's pretty easy. The skill level of these two players is night and day. I watched most of last nights Bulls game.

I've always been a huge fan of his, I thought he had to always take a back seat to Kat and Wig while he was here, which was unfortunate. Beside the skill level, it's so obvious he works on his body and game in the offseason where it's pretty apparent Wig doesn't. He's much stronger off the dribble now, and can withstand contact doing to the rim much better it appears.

Agreed. I preferred him to Wiggy as well. Just for the reasons you said. Great shooter and hard worker. But like SP said, this latest Jimmy drama came out of nowhere.

I don't want to make it a Wiggins vs Lavine thread but once again for the 5th straight year (small sample size of course in year 5) Zach Lavine has a negative +/- and one of the worst plus/minus guys in the NBA. The bulls are good offensively when he is on the floor but they get shredded defensively also. While Wiggins has been a positive every year he has been a pro in the plus/minus stat. I know it is a noisy stat but it has been the trend for 5 years for both players.While Wiggins has been a positive every year he has been a pro in the plus/minus stat. I know it is a noisy stat but it has been the trend for 5 years for both players.

Kek, I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but I show Wiggins having a negative net rating every year of his career except last season.

But you are absolutely right on LaVine. He has been worse than Wiggins in this stat and it's mostly because of the defensive numbers. Now that can't all be put on him, but it must say something when it seems to be the trend every year. I haven't watched him much with the Bulls, but he must still really struggle on that end of the floor.

The thing about Wiggins is that he won't kill you defensively. He won't turn the tide of a team defense but he won't submarine it either (like Crawford does or perhaps LaVine). But yeah, he's been stagnant offensively for practically his whole career while LaVine keeps improving.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3949/onoff

The numbers show the difference when Wiggins is on the court compared to off of it. It also eliminates all garbage time stats. Wiggins has been positive in every year he has been on the Wolves. Now that can be due to a lot of factors, like who is coming into the game for Wiggins and how bad the wolves bench has been but Lavine has been negative for every year of his career. Its not like Lavine has had the best teamates in his career, but the team does better when he is off the court.

*the website is having some troubles at the moment, but for the free info they give on stats about players I enjoy the website.

"According to ESPN's Brian Windhorst, in addition to the Miami Heat, the Houston Rockets, Los Angeles Clippers and Dallas Mavericks are interested in Jimmy Butler"

https://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/1054749892139278336

crazy-canuck wrote:"According to ESPN's Brian Windhorst, in addition to the Miami Heat, the Houston Rockets, Los Angeles Clippers and Dallas Mavericks are interested in Jimmy Butler"

https://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/1054749892139278336

Thanks for posting, CC. Nothing new in this report. I think Brian is wrong that teams like the Clippers and Mavs won't trade for him because they can sign him as a free agent next summer. It should be obvious that having him on your roster before next summer gives you a leg up in two ways on other teams potentially competing with you to sign him as a FA. First, if you trade for him you have his Bird right and can sign him to a bigger contract than any other team. Second, if you trade for him you can establish a bond between Jimmy and his teammates and coaching staff before next season. That not only gives you a positive leg up on other teams trying to sign Butler next summer, it also gives you a head start integrating him into your team for next season.

So here's how I look at it.

First, there are certainly a number of teams that likely have no interest in Butler for various reasons. Some are in an early rebuilding phase. Some might not see his skill set or personality as a good fit for their rosters. Others might be concerned about his injury history and are reluctant to sign him long term at age 30 next summer.

That's leaves a certain teams that likely have some level of interest in Butler. We're seen enough reports to conclude that those teams include Miami, the Clippers, Houston and Dallas. I would add the Sixers and Wizards to that list, even though those two teams haven't been reported as having an interest in Jimmy. I still believe the Grizzlies have an interest. I could also see the Lakers eventually developing interest in Jimmy if they continue to lose and LeBron grows frustrated. I think that's probably the complete list of teams with a significant interest in Jimmy. If the Wolves are smart, they'll exclude Houston from consideration because they simply don't have the assets the Wolves should expect in return for Jimmy. If the Wolves trade Jimmy, they need to get young assets that can be used to build around KAT, Wiggins and Okogie. Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker don't fit that bill. And it's highly unlikely the Rockets would include Capela in a Butler deal.

So the teams that likely have some significant interest in Jimmy, along with assets the Wolves should expect in return, consist of the following six teams: (1) Miami, (2) Clippers, (3) Mavs, (4) Grizzlies, (5) Sixers, and (6) Wizards. I agree with Brian that the teams most likely to pay a premium for Jimmy are those that won't and can't realistically have cap space to sign him next summer. I also think the teams likely to pay more are those with older rosters who have a relatively short window to take their play to another level. So which teams have these two characteristics? Answer: the Heat, Wizards and Grizzlies. Therefore, I'm convinced that, if Butler is traded this season, it will be to one of those three teams.

Note I say, if he's traded. I've reached a point where I wouldn't be surprised to see Butler remain with Wolves the entire season. And who knows. Maybe the Wolves end up with a top 4 finish and first round playoff win this season. And maybe that prompts Butler to stay with the Wolves for a max contract higher than any other organization could pay. I've criticized relying at all on that scenario as a basis for failing to trade Jimmy. But Flip told me he argued against trading Marbury because he was convinced that winning would cure Marbury's woes. Flip remained convinced when I talked to him a few years ago that Marbury would have gotten over his issues and stayed with the Wolves who, at the time Marbury was traded, were in first place in the Western Conference standings. So maybe Thibodeau is on to something.

If we do a deal with any of the teams on my list, here are the players the Wolves should insist on getting in return:

Miami: Josh Richardson or Bam + Miami's 2019 1st rd pk lottery protected or better
Wizards: Bradley Beal or Otto Porter
Grizzlies: Jaren Jackson Jr.
Clippers: Tobias Harris or G-Alexander

Meanwhile, I'm growing more and more comfortable with the idea of holding onto Butler all season. I'm succumbing to the influence of Cam and LST. :) Honestly, I keep thinking about how much better we are with Jimmy and how much I'd miss watching him play for the Wolves.

I think also Charlotte could be interested. Kemba Walker is free agent next summer and I think if Charlotte won't be improving, he might decide to find a team with better changes to get finals. Pairing Kemba with Jimmy would give them probably top back court in whole NBA and could improve their chance to keep both. They also won't have enough cap space to sign Jimmy in next summer otherwise, if they want to keep also Kemba.

I could consider at least following trade options with Charlotte:
Miles Bridges, future 1st, Kidd-Gilchrist and filler in exchange for Butler
or
Miles Bridges, future 1st, Lamb and Batum in exchange for Butler and Dieng
or
Miles Bridges, future 1st, Kidd-Gilchrist and Biyombo in exchange for Butler and Dieng

I also think that even tough Lakers are overall pretty young team, they might not be patient enough to trust that their youngsters improve fast enough that they would be real contender while LeBron is still one of top players in this league. They also have a plenty of young assets to beat other team's offers.

My dream trade would be:
Ingram and Caldwell-Pope in exchange for Butler

This wouldn't be possible until later this season after Caldwell-Pope is possible to trade.

So GM LeBron go for it and save Wolves once again!

I'll add to the latest conversation that listening to Darrell Morey on Woj a I didn't get any type of sense that he was really going after Butler. He said he is probably more aggressive calling and inquiring than anyone out there and he said that might even be a bad thing that he is so willing to call and just make and offer. Lol i'm Not suggesting they aren't interested or that they are the aaparance didn't make me lean a certain way. The asset the Rockets could have to make things interesting in a deal is Chriss. He hasn't played yet because of injury but I was surprised that he had positive advanced numbers defensively last year and he played on the Suns!!! Morey also said that they used to take on more guys with questions and they didn't do that anymore which Could mean they would be less interested in Butler but it also makes you think it's interesting they acquired Chriss who isn't exactly a guy with a sterling rep as a smart basketball player. His trade restriction lifts at the end of the month. I don't see a deal getting done though. Lol

Getting Bridges back from the Hornets as long as the salary we take back isn't too terrible would be pretty sweet. The articles i read about him before the season sounded like they are very high on him.

KCP as an expiring and basically any young player makes me interested.

It's going to be interesting to see where we are at in a few weeks recordwise. I'd guess if the Wolves are playing at least as well as last year it's going to take more than "just get something for Jimmy before he leaves" type of deal at that point. Jimmy getting out onnthe court ballin and emerald speaking hasn't seemed to cause any waves is gonna help his value. I honestly don't know how this is gonna play out and I think most people including myself thought there would have been a trade done by now. Crazy stuff.

Meanwhile it doesn't have anywhere near the impact of Jimmy Butler but Patrick's mcCaw's situation is pretty bizarre.

You scared me, monster. I thought you were about to debate that Marquese Chriss was a meaningful trade chip that could swing the Wolves back to the Rockets in trade negotiations.

Between my excitement for Josh Okogie and the ridiculousness that is the Josh Richardson hype train, I'm not sure I could have handled that one so easily.

Today, I learned that Zach LaVine has scored at least 30 points in all three games this season... and shot 57%+ in each of them.

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Kris Dunn out 4-6 weeks with an MCL. I believe Laurie is out for a while too. I was hoping these guys would have come out and outshined the wolves to make Thibs look bad.

Zach is doing his best to make him look bad all by himself. My goodness is he skilled offensively. Seriously I hate to always rip Wig, but it's pretty easy. The skill level of these two players is night and day. I watched most of last nights Bulls game.

I've always been a huge fan of his, I thought he had to always take a back seat to Kat and Wig while he was here, which was unfortunate. Beside the skill level, it's so obvious he works on his body and game in the offseason where it's pretty apparent Wig doesn't. He's much stronger off the dribble now, and can withstand contact doing to the rim much better it appears.

Agreed. I preferred him to Wiggy as well. Just for the reasons you said. Great shooter and hard worker. But like SP said, this latest Jimmy drama came out of nowhere.

I don't want to make it a Wiggins vs Lavine thread but once again for the 5th straight year (small sample size of course in year 5) Zach Lavine has a negative +/- and one of the worst plus/minus guys in the NBA. The bulls are good offensively when he is on the floor but they get shredded defensively also. While Wiggins has been a positive every year he has been a pro in the plus/minus stat. I know it is a noisy stat but it has been the trend for 5 years for both players.While Wiggins has been a positive every year he has been a pro in the plus/minus stat. I know it is a noisy stat but it has been the trend for 5 years for both players.

Kek, I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but I show Wiggins having a negative net rating every year of his career except last season.

But you are absolutely right on LaVine. He has been worse than Wiggins in this stat and it's mostly because of the defensive numbers. Now that can't all be put on him, but it must say something when it seems to be the trend every year. I haven't watched him much with the Bulls, but he must still really struggle on that end of the floor.

The thing about Wiggins is that he won't kill you defensively. He won't turn the tide of a team defense but he won't submarine it either (like Crawford does or perhaps LaVine). But yeah, he's been stagnant offensively for practically his whole career while LaVine keeps improving.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3949/onoff

The numbers show the difference when Wiggins is on the court compared to off of it. It also eliminates all garbage time stats. Wiggins has been positive in every year he has been on the Wolves. Now that can be due to a lot of factors, like who is coming into the game for Wiggins and how bad the wolves bench has been but Lavine has been negative for every year of his career. Its not like Lavine has had the best teamates in his career, but the team does better when he is off the court.

*the website is having some troubles at the moment, but for the free info they give on stats about players I enjoy the website.

Ok, what you are talking about is net On/Off rating versus simple Net Rating (Net Rating measures team points per 100 possessions and opponent points per 100 possessions while the player is on the floor, so it is basically just an ON rating). You are right that Wiggins has generally had a positive net On/Off rating. What that generally tells us is that he is better than his backup and our starters are better than the bench. I won't disagree with that.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Today, I learned that Zach LaVine has scored at least 30 points in all three games this season... and shot 57%+ in each of them.

I always knew he'd become a great offensive player. He was already a terrific 3-point shooter when we traded him. He's also always been a very good ball-handler and super fast with the ball driving the lane. I haven't seen enough of him to know if his defense is improving.

What if we had traded Wiggins instead of LaVine? It's interesting to ponder that question. The outcome depends on who you have around him. I could envision a terrific team with Butler and LaVine. But for that to work, the Wolves would need Rubio rather than Teague at PG and would have to have a defensive stalwart up front next to KAT. That way you'd surround your two offensive studs (KAT and Zach) with three defenders (Butler, Rubio & a defensive big). In my view, that would be a better team than the one we have now. Wiggins, however, is a better defender than LaVine. It's all a matter of having the right mix of players.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Today, I learned that Zach LaVine has scored at least 30 points in all three games this season... and shot 57%+ in each of them.

I always knew he'd become a great offensive player. He was already a terrific 3-point shooter when we traded him. He's also always been a very good ball-handler and super fast with the ball driving the lane. I haven't seen enough of him to know if his defense is improving.

What if we had traded Wiggins instead of LaVine? It's interesting to ponder that question. The outcome depends on who you have around him. I could envision a terrific team with Butler and LaVine. But for that to work, the Wolves would need Rubio rather than Teague at PG and would have to have a defensive stalwart up front next to KAT. That way you'd surround your two offensive studs (KAT and Zach) with three defenders (Butler, Rubio & a defensive big). In my view, that would be a better team than the one we have now. Wiggins, however, is a better defender than LaVine. It's all a matter of having the right mix of players.

Wiggins and Lavine always had sort of a pick your adventure type aspect when you compare them. Lavine's offensive game was good and complentary and had the chance of being higher than Wiggins especially if you just needed a bucket...which to some extent the current team is lacking especially of Butler leaves. Wiggins on the other hand in theory give you a guy with more defensive physical gifts and even with his flaws he was better than Lavine there.

I'll add here that the numbers for Wiggins and Lavine when it comes to overall rating are basically based on what 2.5 years? Year 1 Lavine was raw as hell and played PG some of the time. Wiggins was clearly the better player their rookie years. Year 2 Lavine played a bunch of minutes with the bench and submarined things as a PG before being elevated to stating SG and started to blossom. In his breakout year as a full time starter he often played a chunk of his minutes with the Bench which was actually a smart move. Meanwhile Wiggins likely played a significantly higher portion of his minutes during all that time as a starter with starters who were better players. I'd still say that Wiggins in general probably gets the edge overall as a positive player but the gap was closing before Lavine's injury. I have no idea about Lavine's defense now and that's a pretty horrible roster on that end especially with Dunn now out for a few weeks. They better hope Carter ends up being least a Horford level defender to help that Groupon that end. 3 very good games from Lavine doesn't mean he will keep up that for even another 20 games. He can be fun as hell to watch though.