Minnesota Sports Forum

Sundog60 wrote:I think a key for me about the trade is that the Ant/Jaden era should be just dawning at the end of this Gobert contract. It sets the Wolves up both to win now (and they better), and give Ant/Jaden significant playoff experience before turning the team over to them. KAT should still be a star then, as well.

From that perspective, it's wasn't the all or nothing move that many view the trade, though the significant draft capital definitely puts the thumb on the win now side of things.

This all the way.

I'm not delusional to think the Wolves didn't overpay if you were to itemize all the pieces of the deal but the realistic outcome is a better team then we likely get with all of those pieces if they stay here.

We are getting closer to seeing what will come of this trade for the 2022-2023 season. Now that Austin Rivers has been signed let's look at the players that went out and who is in.

Out
Beasley
In
Forbes

Ok I think most would say that Beasley is better/more valuable in a vacuum than Forbes. On the other hand Forbes will be a guy that is a depth player and is actually a better shooter than Beasley. I've also seen more highlights so creative Ball handling from Forbes in a few highlights I watched from the last couple years than I have ever seen from Beasley. Regardless I think this is a pretty good trade off especially since it opens up a legit role for Nowell who if he arises like many of us hope means basically nobody will care about Beasley being dealt.

Out
Beverly
In
Austin Rivers

Obviously this is a big downgrade. Rivers is a solid combo guard with size and his defense the last year or so has been praised even though there isn't advanced stats to back them up. Rivers has some edge to him though and he has playoff experience. Again a downgrade but there is a little bit of similarity of these players. I'll also add that Moore could be the actual long term replacement for Beverly a guy that can play and guard multiple positions and hit 3's. I'm a big fan of Moore as having potential as that type of player.

Out
Vanderbilt
In
Gobert

Ok this is obviously a massive upgrade that doesn't need to be discussed as it already has. The Wolves didn't just replace Vanderbilt with Gobert though. They essentially ended up replacing him with a lesser rebounding but MUCH more useful offensive player in Kyle Anderson. Long term they drafted Minott who already looks like he could really be a Vanderbilt type impact player but with much more upside. I also think Knight could become a factor there also although he may be replacing Naz if he moves on at some point.

Out
Bolmaro
In
Moore and Spagnolo

I don't know if it's really worth even discussing Bolmaro that much as he wasn't a rotation guy but the Wolves have 2 different guys that could take his spot as a versatile guard prospect and who knows maybe they still add another guy to the roster on a 2 way. Spagnolo is sort of the opposite of Bolmaro. Not as long or and chaotic or athletic. He also looks like he is a better pure shooter. Bolmaro projects as a better defender. Moore looks like a guy that is a safer version of what Bolmaro could be.

So the Wolves have filled in the roster for the most part guys that played key roles last year with either guys they already had or players they brought in. I think it's reasonable to say that even though they will miss Beverly they have upgraded the roster with solid players and depth and obviously with Gobert. It will be interesting to see what happens with Minott's contract. Either way they still will likely add another player to the roster that will add either to the youth pipeline or depth...or who knows maybe even both! :) Dane Moore thinks the Wolves could still use the bi-annual exception if they wanted to and stay under the tax. I haven't competed my spreadsheet for this coming season yet. I think it would have to be someone kinda exciting for them to use that exception at this point.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Camden wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:So unless the Suns cut payroll somewhere they will be into the tax now, as Sarver said. I have to think that had Gobert still been in Utah to this point, that Phoenix would have made contact about him since they didn't/don't like paying Ayton that number. TBH, James Jones isn't doing his job if that wasn't the case.

The Suns can trade Ayton as early as January 15. They resigned him so he wouldn't walk for nothing.

Ayton has a 1 year no trade clause. It is the problem when you let a team sign your player the Pacers can put all those little annoying things in the contract and that is one

It's worth mentioning that Deandre Ayton can waive that no-trade clause if it's a destination that makes sense for him. I'm also not sure if he has a trade kicker in his deal, but that would be another reason for him to waive the no-trade clause.

Correct, like every other no trade clause. I just mentioned it because it's not like January 15th comes along and the Suns just trade him to the highest bidder. Ayton will have all the say in year 1

Yep. My bad. Just heard Zach Lowe tell me I was wrong. And now kekgeek.

Who's next?

https://giphy.com/gifs/request-donald-wrong-hPPx8yk3Bmqys

In the midst of my despair over the Gobert deal, here's an interesting positive take from a credible NBA player, Alex Caruso:

https://dunkingwithwolves.com/2022/07/15/alex-caruso-timberwolves-remind-title-lakers/

Here's an excerpt:

Caruso had praise for Minnesota's intent to start Gobert at the five while allowing KAT to play at power forward. "It reminds me a lot of the LA team when we won the championship," he said. "We would start Anthony Davis at the four and save his body a little bit, and not have him bang with the fives the whole season. It just reminds me of us having JaVale (McGee) and Dwight (Howard) to do some of that dirty work."

He also complemented the interplay of Gobert and Towns with their differing skillsets: "I think the fit is great. Because Gobert does all the things that KAT doesn't really do well, and KAT does things that Gobert doesn't do well. It's a good mesh." That's certainly high praise from someone who played on a championship team and saw a similar system reach the NBA mountaintop.

I think it was in this thread I mentioned how GS traded for Iggy and for 6 years of drafts basically all they had to show was Kevon Looney. It occurred to me one day this week there is another team to look at when it comes to draft picks and winning a championship.

It's everyone's favorite small market team the Milwaukee Bucks. Here are basically the highlights/lowlights from their drafts after selecting Giannis in 2013.

2014 #2 Jabari Parker who is basically out of the league and they got nothing for him because they simply let him walk and he was #2 overall pick.

2016 #10 Thon Maker #36 Malcom Brogdon

2018 #17 Donte DVincenzo.

So for 6-7 years of drafting the Bucks basically got Malcom Brogdon a 2nd round pick who they signed and traded away and a couple years of DVincenzo (was injured in the playoffs when they won the championship) who they eventually traded for a few months of Ibaka. So basically after Giannis they drafted Brogdon who they traded and used some of those assets to trade for Jrue Holiday. This is a team that won a championship with really very little draft picks helping and the one guy that helped the most to get there was a 2nd round pick.

monsterpile wrote:I think it was in this thread I mentioned how GS traded for Iggy and for 6 years of drafts basically all they had to show was Kevon Looney. It occurred to me one day this week there is another team to look at when it comes to draft picks and winning a championship.

It's everyone's favorite small market team the Milwaukee Bucks. Here are basically the highlights/lowlights from their drafts after selecting Giannis in 2013.

2014 #2 Jabari Parker who is basically out of the league and they got nothing for him because they simply let him walk and he was #2 overall pick.

2016 #10 Thon Maker #36 Malcom Brogdon

2018 #17 Donte DVincenzo.

So for 6-7 years of drafting the Bucks basically got Malcom Brogdon a 2nd round pick who they signed and traded away and a couple years of DVincenzo (was injured in the playoffs when they won the championship) who they eventually traded for a few months of Ibaka. So basically after Giannis they drafted Brogdon who they traded and used some of those assets to trade for Jrue Holiday. This is a team that won a championship with really very little draft picks helping and the one guy that helped the most to get there was a 2nd round pick.

They won a championship because of their #15 pick in 2013, Giannis. And their second-round picks, Brogdon, was key to acquiring Jrue Holiday.

The Warriors have won multiple championships because they drafted Curry, Thompson and Green. Last season two more Warriors' first-round picks contributed significantly to their championship - Poole and Looney.

Even the best organizations miss on a lot of picks. That's why you want as many picks as possible - to improve your chances of nabbing a gem or to use as trade assets when you absolutely need to. As an example, the Bucks hit a point where they needed to deal for Jrue Holiday. It was clear at that point they were stalled and Giannis was headed to free agency. They had Brogdon and future picks at their disposal to make that deal when they had to.

Trading our future picks for Gobert was a calculated risk that might pay off. But I'd prefer having those picks.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I think it was in this thread I mentioned how GS traded for Iggy and for 6 years of drafts basically all they had to show was Kevon Looney. It occurred to me one day this week there is another team to look at when it comes to draft picks and winning a championship.

It's everyone's favorite small market team the Milwaukee Bucks. Here are basically the highlights/lowlights from their drafts after selecting Giannis in 2013.

2014 #2 Jabari Parker who is basically out of the league and they got nothing for him because they simply let him walk and he was #2 overall pick.

2016 #10 Thon Maker #36 Malcom Brogdon

2018 #17 Donte DVincenzo.

So for 6-7 years of drafting the Bucks basically got Malcom Brogdon a 2nd round pick who they signed and traded away and a couple years of DVincenzo (was injured in the playoffs when they won the championship) who they eventually traded for a few months of Ibaka. So basically after Giannis they drafted Brogdon who they traded and used some of those assets to trade for Jrue Holiday. This is a team that won a championship with really very little draft picks helping and the one guy that helped the most to get there was a 2nd round pick.

They won a championship because of their #15 pick in 2013, Giannis. And their second-round picks, Brogdon, was key to acquiring Jrue Holiday.

The Warriors have won multiple championships because they drafted Curry, Thompson and Green. Last season two more Warriors' first-round picks contributed significantly to their championship - Poole and Looney.

Even the best organizations miss on a lot of picks. That's why you want as many picks as possible - to improve your chances of nabbing a gem or to use as trade assets when you absolutely need to. As an example, the Bucks hit a point where they needed to deal for Jrue Holiday. It was clear at that point they were stalled and Giannis was headed to free agency. They had Brogdon and future picks at their disposal to make that deal when they had to.

Trading our future picks for Gobert was a calculated risk that might pay off. But I'd prefer having those picks.

For every Giannis or Brogdon there were a bunch of guys people likely have forgotten about even existed. I'm not saying draft picks are worthless heck we both value picks about as much as anyone but it's really something to look back and see just how little the Bucks got out of the draft. It's encouraging to see 2 championship teams that built themselves up went years without significant help from the draft which is what the Wolves are kinda looking at right now.

One thing the Bucks did was make smart acquisitions that at the time may have been closer to the margins than particularly significant. Pat Coddaughton has been a very worthwhile player for them. Bobby Portis has been a key player the last 2 years for them. There are a lot of ways to add to a successful team.

Good call out Monster.

How the Bucks' top 8 players in terms of playoff minutes during their Championship run were acquired:

Middleton - Trade
Holiday - Trade
Giannis - Draft
PJ Tucker - Trade
Lopez - Free Agency
Connaughton - Free Agency
Portis - Free Agency
Forbes (our guy now!) - Free Agency

Only Giannis was drafted by the Bucks!

Q-was-here wrote:Good call out Monster.

How the Bucks' top 8 players in terms of playoff minutes during their Championship run were acquired:

Middleton - Trade
Holiday - Trade
Giannis - Draft
PJ Tucker - Trade
Lopez - Free Agency
Connaughton - Free Agency
Portis - Free Agency
Forbes (our guy now!) - Free Agency

Only Giannis was drafted by the Bucks!

And none of those trades or free agent acquisitions matter if the Bucks hadn't drafted Giannis.

The Bulls drafted MJ, Pippen and Grant; then built around them with trades, free agency and a key draft pick, Tony Kukoc. The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson, Green, Poole and Looney and have from time to time picked up vets like Iggy and Durant in other ways.

The Wolves drafted Edwards, KAT and McDaniels. There are different ways to build around those three. The Wolves have rounded out their core DLO and Gobert. They traded a total of 6 first-round picks and 1 second-rounder, along with 4 rotation players and a prospect (Bolmaro), for those latter two. It might all lead to a championship. I agree with Draymond that it works if Edwards becomes a superstar. I think he will, but we can't know for sure. He'll have to become that star within the window of Gobert's 4 year deal. I can definitely see that happening. But then again, it might not.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:Good call out Monster.

How the Bucks' top 8 players in terms of playoff minutes during their Championship run were acquired:

Middleton - Trade
Holiday - Trade
Giannis - Draft
PJ Tucker - Trade
Lopez - Free Agency
Connaughton - Free Agency
Portis - Free Agency
Forbes (our guy now!) - Free Agency

Only Giannis was drafted by the Bucks!

And none of those trades or free agent acquisitions matter if the Bucks hadn't drafted Giannis.

The Bulls drafted MJ, Pippen and Grant; then built around them with trades, free agency and a key draft pick, Tony Kukoc. The Warriors drafted Curry, Thompson, Green, Poole and Looney and have from time to time picked up vets like Iggy and Durant in other ways.

The Wolves drafted Edwards, KAT and McDaniels. There are different ways to build around those three. The Wolves have rounded out their core DLO and Gobert. They traded a total of 6 first-round picks and 1 second-rounder, along with 4 rotation players and a prospect (Bolmaro), for those latter two. It might all lead to a championship. I agree with Draymond that it works if Edwards becomes a superstar. I think he will, but we can't know for sure. He'll have to become that star within the window of Gobert's 4 year deal. I can definitely see that happening. But then again, it might not.

Yes, the draft is super important for getting those first two or three key pieces and I would never argue otherwise. But after that, it becomes trade currency more than anything. I guess the point is that you don't need a constant influx of late 1st and 2nd rounders that end up becoming key rotational pieces every year once you have your core in place. You become a much more attractive free agency destination. And I think Mpls/St. Paul has more to offer than Milwaukee!

As for "in order for the trade to work Ant will need to become a star" narrative, well, that's the case even if we didn't trade for Gobert. How often have we said KAT isn't going to win us a title as the best player? Ant needed to become the best player in a non-Gobert Wolves team as well in order for us to win a title. And if it wasn't going to be Ant, it certainly isn't likely that it would be one of the picks we traded away.