Minnesota Sports Forum

I like Poeltl 100 times better than Jamal Murray. Poeltl can play good defense and Murray, well he is a horrible defender, almost as bad as Bazz. Also Murray is ball dominant and we don't need his ball hogging ways when we have 3 young guys to feed. He'd clash with our young guys the way Dion Waiters did in Cleveland. I'd rather Gary Payton II than Murray (even though Murray is mocked much higher) as Gary is not an alpha scorer like Murray, but sure can defend well and pass the ball.

I sure hope we can learn the lessons that KMart and Bazz have taught us. Players that are ball dominant and can't defend are not a good fit in our regular rotation.

TR - Good point. I really have a bad feeling about this draft.

TeamRicky wrote:I like Poeltl 100 times better than Jamal Murray. Poeltl can play good defense and Murray, well he is a horrible defender, almost as bad as Bazz. Also Murray is ball dominant and we don't need his ball hogging ways when we have 3 young guys to feed. He'd clash with our young guys the way Dion Waiters did in Cleveland. I'd rather Gary Payton II than Murray (even though Murray is mocked much higher) as Gary is not an alpha scorer like Murray, but sure can defend well and pass the ball.

I sure hope we can learn the lessons that KMart and Bazz have taught us. Players that are ball dominant and can't defend are not a good fit in our regular rotation.

He's not even ball dominant at Kentucky so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. Here's the thing: I feel like you haven't watched much of Murray with the way you talk about him and you have these ideas about him that you feel are right in your head, but they don't match with what's happened on the court. I'm not taking a jab at you here because there's a ton of prospects and not every game is accessible to everyone. The Murray to Waiters comparison is way, way off, though.

Murray plays mostly off-ball at Kentucky. Ulis runs the show. Part of what makes Murray so good is his ability to come off screens, square up and drain threes. That's part of the scouting report with that guy. If you ask almost anyone who follows Wildcat basketball, they'd also tell you that Murray isn't handling the ball enough. That seems to agree with what I thought about him too in that his point guard abilities offensively haven't been displayed enough this season. He's not being used the same way he was during the 2015 Pan Ams where he shredded the competition with scoring and facilitating despite being years younger than practically everyone there.

Calipari also has a track record of misusing guys so that they'll develop in other areas of their games. Most recently, we saw that with Towns, but also with Booker. Did you see any of that ball-handling and passing ability from Booker in college? I sure didn't and I watched just about every game of theirs when I was infatuated with Towns.

Point being, I think you're misjudging Murray and overvaluing other guys.

So my questions about Murray would be.

Can he backup Ruibo and LaVine?
Would he be an upgrade over Tyus as a backup PG?

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:I like Poeltl 100 times better than Jamal Murray. Poeltl can play good defense and Murray, well he is a horrible defender, almost as bad as Bazz. Also Murray is ball dominant and we don't need his ball hogging ways when we have 3 young guys to feed. He'd clash with our young guys the way Dion Waiters did in Cleveland. I'd rather Gary Payton II than Murray (even though Murray is mocked much higher) as Gary is not an alpha scorer like Murray, but sure can defend well and pass the ball.

I sure hope we can learn the lessons that KMart and Bazz have taught us. Players that are ball dominant and can't defend are not a good fit in our regular rotation.

He's not even ball dominant at Kentucky so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. Here's the thing: I feel like you haven't watched much of Murray with the way you talk about him and you have these ideas about him that you feel are right in your head, but they don't match with what's happened on the court. I'm not taking a jab at you here because there's a ton of prospects and not every game is accessible to everyone. The Murray to Waiters comparison is way, way off, though.

Murray plays mostly off-ball at Kentucky. Ulis runs the show. Part of what makes Murray so good is his ability to come off screens, square up and drain threes. That's part of the scouting report with that guy. If you ask almost anyone who follows Wildcat basketball, they'd also tell you that Murray isn't handling the ball enough. That seems to agree with what I thought about him too in that his point guard abilities offensively haven't been displayed enough this season. He's not being used the same way he was during the 2015 Pan Ams where he shredded the competition with scoring and facilitating despite being years younger than practically everyone there.

Calipari also has a track record of misusing guys so that they'll develop in other areas of their games. Most recently, we saw that with Towns, but also with Booker. Did you see any of that ball-handling and passing ability from Booker in college? I sure didn't and I watched just about every game of theirs when I was infatuated with Towns.

Point being, I think you're misjudging Murray and overvaluing other guys.

Thank you Cam. I am not sure I love Murray as a prospect, but I have also watched a bunch of Kentucky games and his talent is undeniable. Ulis plays nearly 37 mpg, and is almost always the guy with the ball in his hands. I believe TeamRicky is overseas and maybe doesn't see any college games...not sure. But even if you watch a single game, you will clearly see defined roles. And it's almost like his ability to actually get an assist once in a while (ahem Wiggins...) is talked about like it's a bad thing. All the sudden we don't want playmakers at any position other than PG? You ever see Harden? Wade? Kobe? These guys are all supreme playmakers....their versatility is part of what makes those players great. And Waiters certainly isn't a good comparison as he has NEVER been able to shoot, thus he is always looking to handle the ball and create moving towards the basket. Very different skillsets. And the reference to Kmart is just silly. I assume you mean the Kmart we have at the end of his career. In his prime, he was a very impactful player, and one of the best pure scorers in the game.

I also like Poetl. But man, seems big guys can't stay healthy at all anymore. Not sure I take Poetl simply because the recent track record for large guys is horrible from a health perspective. Recently read an interesting article about the major rising injuries to our youth due to single sport repetition. They say it is now starting in the 4th-5th grade timeframe. Have to believe this is even more impactful to these big guys who start specializing in basketball at such a young age. Can't think of any surface, short of pavement, that could do as much damage to knees and backs than a basketball court.

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:I like Poeltl 100 times better than Jamal Murray. Poeltl can play good defense and Murray, well he is a horrible defender, almost as bad as Bazz. Also Murray is ball dominant and we don't need his ball hogging ways when we have 3 young guys to feed. He'd clash with our young guys the way Dion Waiters did in Cleveland. I'd rather Gary Payton II than Murray (even though Murray is mocked much higher) as Gary is not an alpha scorer like Murray, but sure can defend well and pass the ball.

I sure hope we can learn the lessons that KMart and Bazz have taught us. Players that are ball dominant and can't defend are not a good fit in our regular rotation.

He's not even ball dominant at Kentucky so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. Here's the thing: I feel like you haven't watched much of Murray with the way you talk about him and you have these ideas about him that you feel are right in your head, but they don't match with what's happened on the court. I'm not taking a jab at you here because there's a ton of prospects and not every game is accessible to everyone. The Murray to Waiters comparison is way, way off, though.

Murray plays mostly off-ball at Kentucky. Ulis runs the show. Part of what makes Murray so good is his ability to come off screens, square up and drain threes. That's part of the scouting report with that guy. If you ask almost anyone who follows Wildcat basketball, they'd also tell you that Murray isn't handling the ball enough. That seems to agree with what I thought about him too in that his point guard abilities offensively haven't been displayed enough this season. He's not being used the same way he was during the 2015 Pan Ams where he shredded the competition with scoring and facilitating despite being years younger than practically everyone there.

Calipari also has a track record of misusing guys so that they'll develop in other areas of their games. Most recently, we saw that with Towns, but also with Booker. Did you see any of that ball-handling and passing ability from Booker in college? I sure didn't and I watched just about every game of theirs when I was infatuated with Towns.

Point being, I think you're misjudging Murray and overvaluing other guys.

I think you overrate Murray and underrate Valentine. Maybe we use "ball dominant" to describe different things. Murray's calling card is his scoring. He needs to take shots. He doesn't bring much else to the table (he's a poor defender and he's only a so-so passer). I wouldn't want him in the rotation with KAT, Wiggins and LaVine taking away shots from them. A very good two way player even if he's more of a role player would be much better than a non-defending scorer.

I look at all kinds of stats on everyone (basic and advanced) and I favor certain types of players. I'm always looking for guys that project to be good on both sides of the ball. I like high IQ guys and guys who show multi-talent focus. If a guy can't defend or pass, I am not a fan. This draft is much weaker than last year, but there is some potential diamonds in the rough. I always look at the guys that succeed and fail and what their college stats and measurables looked like to help me project players.

I got a chuckle when you said this "He's not being used the same way he was during the 2015 Pan Ams where he shredded the competition with scoring and facilitating despite being years younger than practically everyone there."

What competition? It was horrible. Even AB shined. Scola was a star. And I did watch several games with Murray and I was not impressed.

That's fine that we disagree on a couple of guys that are likely to go in the lottery, but when you start ranking a 23-year old who's a second round talent like Gary Payton II over 19-year old Jamal Murray, you need to step back and rethink your evaluating process. It's a bit fuzzy.

Camden wrote:That's fine that we disagree on a couple of guys that are likely to go in the lottery, but when you start ranking a 23-year old who's a second round talent like Gary Payton II over 19-year old Jamal Murray, you need to step back and rethink your evaluating process. It's a bit fuzzy.

Hey there's been some pretty good talent in the second round (Marc Gasol, Daymond Green, Crowder, Middleton, Clarkson) so if Payton has that kind of potential, that's not bad. I have a pretty good track record of projecting players in the draft as its something I really enjoy doing . Last year I said the top two guys were KAT and Porzingis and you liked KAT but hated Porzingis, so I don't think you have shown to have a better crystal ball than me.

TeamRicky wrote:

Camden wrote:That's fine that we disagree on a couple of guys that are likely to go in the lottery, but when you start ranking a 23-year old who's a second round talent like Gary Payton II over 19-year old Jamal Murray, you need to step back and rethink your evaluating process. It's a bit fuzzy.

Hey there's been some pretty good talent in the second round (Marc Gasol, Daymond Green, Crowder, Middleton, Clarkson) so if Payton has that kind of potential, that's not bad. I have a pretty good track record of projecting players in the draft as its something I really enjoy doing . Last year I said the top two guys were KAT and Porzingis and you liked KAT but hated Porzingis, so I don't think you have shown to have a better crystal ball than me.

Not trying to get into a pissing match with you. I feel just as strongly (if not stronger) about my draft record as you probably do yours and for that reason alone, I'm not going to list who I was right or wrong about or who you were wrong about. That only takes us further away from the overall goal of this thread.

What I can't understand is how you can dog Murray as bad as you do when it seems you're misinformed on the guy. A lot of what you said about him doesn't check out and I don't think I'm the only one who has made that known. I stand by that.

Lastly, most 2nd round picks that blossom into useful/good/great players were originally evaluated correctly, but with the right coaching, environment, playing situation and hardwork made them into much better players. What I mean by that is that Payton could very well turn out to be the better player between him and Murray five years from now, BUT the correct evaluation today leading up to the draft is that Murray's the much better prospect. He's shown a lot more while still being four years younger and has way more upside. Saying that you'd take Payton over Murray isn't a prognosis based on information and video that we have at our disposal, but rather a hot take or an against-the-crowd guess that may or may not result in your favor.

My statement on Payton was more an indication how much I am against Murray. I have seen the stats and seen him play and I don't want to draft him. Maybe he won't be a terrible NBA player but he's the wrong guy for our team. By the way, I was pretty high on Bledsoe when he came out and he wasn't ranked that high and we could have had him over Martell Webster. I am probably the biggest Bazz critic on this Board, and while I think Murray is better than Bazz, he carries some of the same negatives as Bazz and I really think its the wrong direction to double down on a non-defending scorer. We likely have a top 5 or 6 pick and there are better options than Murray for us.