Minnesota Sports Forum

Obvious deal to clear room for Bolmaro at PG, also Prince is expiring and can be moved quite easily. He can shoot the 3 ball pretty well and can flex as a SF/PF. Getting what could be a high 2nd next year with the gems Rosas has found in the late 1st and undrafted FA's that at least show decently in the NBA makes me really like that 2nd for Rubio who just didn't mesh with the team well and was blocking a talented Bolmaro. I dig this move quite a bit.

Anyone got stats to get an idea on Prince's ability to defend? Or lack of ability, I am not too familiar with his overall game.

Tactical unit wrote:Obvious deal to clear room for Bolmaro at PG, also Prince is expiring and can be moved quite easily. He can shoot the 3 ball pretty well and can flex as a SF/PF. Getting what could be a high 2nd next year with the gems Rosas has found in the late 1st and undrafted FA's that at least show decently in the NBA makes me really like that 2nd for Rubio who just didn't mesh with the team well and was blocking a talented Bolmaro. I dig this move quite a bit.

Anyone got stats to get an idea on Prince's ability to defend? Or lack of ability, I am not too familiar with his overall game.

FNG posted some stats that show Prince to be a pretty bad defender. He's not a particularly efficient shooter either. We traded one bench rotation guy for another. I think Ricky is the better rotation guy of the two and I see little value in a PF who doesn't rebound or protect the rim. However, this deal will create another approximately $4.8M in space under the luxury tax threshold. That might be enough to get a quality true big in free agency, but it would seem that we now need to sign a veteran PG to replace Ricky unless we're ready to give that job to JMac.

lipoli390 wrote:

Tactical unit wrote:Obvious deal to clear room for Bolmaro at PG, also Prince is expiring and can be moved quite easily. He can shoot the 3 ball pretty well and can flex as a SF/PF. Getting what could be a high 2nd next year with the gems Rosas has found in the late 1st and undrafted FA's that at least show decently in the NBA makes me really like that 2nd for Rubio who just didn't mesh with the team well and was blocking a talented Bolmaro. I dig this move quite a bit.

Anyone got stats to get an idea on Prince's ability to defend? Or lack of ability, I am not too familiar with his overall game.

FNG posted some stats that who Prince to be a pretty bad defender. He's not a particularly efficient shooter either. We traded one bench rotation guy for another. I think Ricky is the better rotation guy of the two and I see little value in a PF who doesn't rebound or protect the rim. However, this deal will create another approximately $4.8M in space under the luxury tax threshold. That might be enough to get a quality true big in free agency, but it would seem that we now need to sign a veteran PG to replace Ricky unless we're ready to give that job to JMac.

I'm doing a little reading and his defensive value may hinge on whether he is playing PF or as a wing. I was comparing his numbers to Jae Crowder and they are similar although he is much better 3 point shooter. He is also longer than Crowder although Crowder weighs more.

It seems like another move seems likely maybe now it's another similar deal trading Layman or Juancho for a guard. Or maybe even do something like Culver for DJ Augustine from Houston.

That 2nd has the potential to turn into the next Mcdaniels, Nowell, Reid or Bolmaro type of player it could also bust out but if you get a medium to low percentage shot at a similar talent to one of those players for Rubio I think you take it.

The ability to free up cap space, free up playing time for Bolmaro or another PG that may have more scoring pop than Rubio and an expiring that may be an ok bench player. Prince maybe will be a part of a future deal, or if decent in season shooting like Prince can from three could easily land another 2nd....I like it quite a bit.

I think we're all overlooking the most important point here.

We just added a comic genius to our roster.

Anybody remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atr60tR7Emo

Oh my god, that's probably the funniest reply to a sportswriter cliche I've ever heard.

In all seriousness though, I love Rubio and I don't get the hate for this deal from some guys here. This seems like a logical roster-balancing move. I'm not sure what we're all basing our views on. I've seen him play about two full games per year (every time we play them) which is probably as much as anybody here. We can all parse the stats too, but I figure we should all temper our initial reactions based on how much we've actually seen this guy play. There's been a trend on this board for people making claims based on boxscores and stats alone in the last year or two that I think needs to be checked a bit with actually watching games.

From what seen, Prince always struck me as a pretty solid, mostly well-rounded forward who is a good 3 point shooter, especially as a forward, which is crucial in this league and will help stretch the floor for Ant. He's got pretty good hands, and can handle the ball and pass it with some fluidity--which automatically makes him more skilled than Vando, Juancho, and Layman. Not a great individual rebounder but I remember noticing he has the court sense to box out which should help with team rebounds. He always struck me as a fairly solid defender. Defends with his feet, doesn't foul too much. Not the guy we'd all want, but a pretty solid dude in a position of need.

The move that disappointed me last night (because we didn't make it) was the Hornets getting Plumlee for nothing. Seriously, what was that trade? Did I read correctly that Detroit traded him and a second rounder for a WORSE second rounder? I get that Stewart looks really good, but Plumlee was a starter last year who had a solid defensive impact for them and they traded him away like he was a negative asset. He was a guy I listed among my realistic bigs we could target this offseason to help us address our defense. *sigh* Then again, I'm not sure he has the dry, sardonic wit of a guy like Prince.

SON Drew from way back, what a gem that clip is LOL, thank you for posting that.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I think we're all overlooking the most important point here.

We just added a comic genius to our roster.

Anybody remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atr60tR7Emo

Oh my god, that's probably the funniest reply to a sportswriter cliche I've ever heard.

In all seriousness though, I love Rubio and I don't get the hate for this deal from some guys here. This seems like a logical roster-balancing move. I'm not sure what we're all basing our views on. I've seen him play about two full games per year (every time we play them) which is probably as much as anybody here. We can all parse the stats too, but I figure we should all temper our initial reactions based on how much we've actually seen this guy play. There's been a trend on this board for people making claims based on boxscores and stats alone in the last year or two that I think needs to be checked a bit with actually watching games.

From what seen, Prince always struck me as a pretty solid, mostly well-rounded forward who is a good 3 point shooter, especially as a forward, which is crucial in this league and will help stretch the floor for Ant. He's got pretty good hands, and can handle the ball and pass it with some fluidity--which automatically makes him more skilled than Vando, Juancho, and Layman. Not a great individual rebounder but I remember noticing he has the court sense to box out which should help with team rebounds. He always struck me as a fairly solid defender. Defends with his feet, doesn't foul too much. Not the guy we'd all want, but a pretty solid dude in a position of need.

The move that disappointed me last night (because we didn't make it) was the Hornets getting Plumlee for nothing. Seriously, what was that trade? Did I read correctly that Detroit traded him and a second rounder for a WORSE second rounder? I get that Stewart looks really good, but Plumlee was a starter last year who had a solid defensive impact for them and they traded him away like he was a negative asset. He was a guy I listed among my realistic bigs we could target this offseason to help us address our defense. *sigh* Then again, I'm not sure he has the dry, sardonic wit of a guy like Prince.

I'm surprised that Detroit paid to move Plumlee. Unfortunately the Wolves aren't able to make a deal like that one as they aren't under the cap or have a trade exception. The fact that Detroit paid to get rid of Plumlee kinda makes the Rubio deal look better as the Wolves got some value back instead of having to pay to move him. It would have been nice to get Plumlee and a relatively cheap but effective player.

Tactical unit wrote:SON Drew from way back, what a gem that clip is LOL, thank you for posting that.

Ha, that was pretty good!

On the negative side, though, Prince has to joke about rebounds, because it's something he just doesn't do...5.9 rebounds per 36 for a pseudo PF is absurdly bad. I'm not surprised he got outrebounded by the Yalies. Let this stat related to the two guys we picked up last night for awhile: 6-7 Prince averaged 4.2 rebounds per game in college; 6-0 McKinley Wright averaged 4.9.

The only good thing I can say about this deal is it doesn't stink as much as the deal that brought DLO here.

Good to see some balanced replies on Prince. I agree that many of us haven't watched him enough to give a true account of his effectiveness. But stats are derived from real on court things that happen. The one area that is always tough to capture is defensive impact. But there is almost nothing that looks good on that side of things either - at least not since his rookie year.

Prince certainly fits the archetype of what we need - a 'tweener forward that can shoot. Defense is a huge question mark and how he looks guarding opposing big wings is THE #1 thing that to me swings this trade in or out of our favor. If he's as good as Okogie on that side of the ball, then this is an upgrade for us since he can hit open 3s. If he struggles defensively, then this is just moving deck chairs.

Q12543 wrote:Good to see some balanced replies on Prince. I agree that many of us haven't watched him enough to give a true account of his effectiveness. But stats are derived from real on court things that happen. The one area that is always tough to capture is defensive impact. But there is almost nothing that looks good on that side of things either - at least not since his rookie year.

Prince certainly fits the archetype of what we need - a 'tweener forward that can shoot. Defense is a huge question mark and how he looks guarding opposing big wings is THE #1 thing that to me swings this trade in or out of our favor. If he's as good as Okogie on that side of the ball, then this is an upgrade for us since he can hit open 3s. If he struggles defensively, then this is just moving deck chairs.

I appreciate Drew's perspective based on what he's seen of Prince. But I agree that what a player does on the court is ultimately reflected in his stats. What we see in the games we watch can be misleading - just like eye-witness testimony, which studies have shown to be the least reliable evidence in court cases. It's counter-intuitive, but it's true. Moreover, when it comes to players on other teams, none of us sees more than a tiny sample of their games.

Knowing that Rosas was aggressively pursuing Gallo, I'm not surprised that he eventually traded for Prince. It's a reflection of Gersson's obsession with PF/SF tweeners who shoot threes. That's his lens and it appears to be immutable. Unfortunately, Gersson's lens appears to filter out what this team really needs in the front court, i.e., size, defense and toughness. The objective data tell us that he doesn't provide the first two. I have no sense of his toughness, except for his poor defensive stats, along with the fact that he rarely gets to the line and doesn't appear to score much inside, at least by power forward standards. Note that he's also a poor rebounder by PF or even SF standards. Ricky Rubio has better career rebounding numbers.

The bottom line for me is that Prince doesn't fill what I consider to be this team's biggest needs - defense, size, rim protection and toughness - and doesn't provide the help on the boards that this team, or any team, needs from their PF. So I don't see the swap of Ricky for Prince as a net positive for our roster. I see it as a net negative. Having said that, the true value of this deal lies in the $4.8M salary savings, which might enable the Wolves to get a decent player in free agency, and the Wizards' 2022 2nd-round pick that we're apparently receiving as part of this deal. Once it became clear that the Wolves, not the Cavs, are getting the 2nd-round pick and that the pick is the Wizards, I felt better about the deal.

The Wolves can now sign Bolmaro to his rookie-scale deal and have plenty of room under the luxury tax to max any realistic offer another team might extend to Vanderbilt. Ideally, the Wolves will be able to sign Vanderbilt for no more than $2M per year, which would still leave the Wolves with about $5.8M under the luxury tax to spend on a free agent big or backup PG.