BizarroJerry wrote:Didn't we pass on Gary Harris too? Damn we should be the Nuggets. Jimmy Butler in the ECF too.
Tell me again why I should follow this team?
I mean we took lavine with that pick
So we can blame Lavine for this. We took him over Harris to then trade for Butler and look where they are now.
Trade Wiggins instead of LaVine like Thibs reportedly leaned towards doing and we're sitting pretty right now.
I also like where we're at right now, to be honest. Karl-Anthony Towns and D'Angelo Russell make up a super solid young duo to start from and the number one pick should add another foundational piece to the mix whether it's used in trade or used to select a top prospect. We also have a couple relatively solid and proven role players -- even when some were on playoff teams -- in Malik Beasley, James Johnson, Juan Hernangomez, and Jordan McLaughlin. Naz Reid could also have a case for being a viable NBA rotation player even after his rookie season. Minnesota has a talented roster. My main worry is that their leader in charge of putting these guys in the right situations has no idea what he's doing because he's never been a scout, lead assistant, college head coach, or a professional player at the NBA level or overseas. We're literally relying on his last name to be enough. What joke of a franchise would do that? Oh, right.
BizarroJerry wrote:Didn't we pass on Gary Harris too? Damn we should be the Nuggets. Jimmy Butler in the ECF too.
Tell me again why I should follow this team?
I mean we took lavine with that pick
So we can blame Lavine for this. We took him over Harris to then trade for Butler and look where they are now.
Trade Wiggins instead of LaVine like Thibs reportedly leaned towards doing and we're sitting pretty right now.
I also like where we're at right now, to be honest. Karl-Anthony Towns and D'Angelo Russell make up a super solid young duo to start from and the number one pick should add another foundational piece to the mix whether it's used in trade or used to select a top prospect. We also have a couple relatively solid and proven role players -- even when some were on playoff teams -- in Malik Beasley, James Johnson, Juan Hernangomez, and Jordan McLaughlin. Naz Reid could also have a case for being a viable NBA rotation player even after his rookie season. Minnesota has a talented roster. My main worry is that their leader in charge of putting these guys in the right situations has no idea what he's doing because he's never been a scout, lead assistant, college head coach, or a professional player at the NBA level or overseas. We're literally relying on his last name to be enough. What joke of a franchise would do that? Oh, right.
Well said, Cam. It's terribly frustrating because it seems so obvious that we don't have the caliber head coach we need to get the most out of what we have. Yet we're stuck. Bill Donovan and Kenny Atkinson would both be terrific choices. I'd like the idea of Atkinson coming here. DLO had his best season by far under him. But alas...
I was all in on Murray but I wouldn't have hated Buddy (Would be nice to have that kind of a shooter). Gary Payton III came up in this thread...he was partly why I would have passed on Dunn because I thought you could just pick him later. IF you look up some advanced stats from this season Dunn is very good defensively. Dunn is a negative on offense even though I wouldn't even say his shooting is actually that terrible. I wonder if he could progress in that area a little if he could just stay healthy. Thats been a problem. If some team can sign him for the right contract he would be a pretty good value even if he only plays like 60% of the games. the right team he could be a nice fit. I never saw the offensive upside in Dunn. I wasn't in love with Culver but I saw more potential in him than Dunn on that end...I still Think Culver has a chance to be a positive on offense.
Back to Murray...he was terrific in international play for team Canada. Maybe that wasn't the fluke people that didn't think he was going to be good...is this playoff thing a fluke? we will see. he has now played 28 playoff games. Russell has played 5. I wonder what Murray's stats were for his first 5 playoff games.
Lip, I think we generally agree on where we are at with Ryan Saunders but I thought it was a low blow saying he should be thankful to even be an assistant. He has done enough in his career not to get that much shade.
Like 80% of this board wanted Sabonis.
Flip picking Lavine sometimes gets forgotten. It was a risky and quite frankly it paid off. It would have been interesting to have Flip coach him as Flip had a pretty good track record with guards. Gary Harris is a solid 2 way player. I think if they had the same contract I think Lavine may still have more value. Its hard to find guys that have his offensive skillset. both guys have missed games.
Cam already covered most of this but part of the reason why Denver moved Beasley is they weren't likely going to pay him. They got good value in basically a 1st round pick. Some smart basketball people wondered if they were going to get that return since he was struggling after a really good previous year. They didn't trade him cause they didn't want him anymore.
Meanwhile FVV put up 19 and 7 in this year's playoffs. Every team could have signed him but he was too small too slow couldn't shoot or score or whatever. I actually like J-Mac as much as anyone I just try and stay realistic about him. I think he could end up being a really good player. I'd be happy if he ended up being a Monte Morris level guy. The Raptors didn't exactly hit on on their guys but when you hit of FVV and Siakam thats pretty bigtime.
Monster - I don't consider it a low blow to say Ryan should be thankful to be an NBA assistant coach. That's not demeaning. It's a job anyone who loves basketball should and would likely be thankful to have. I'll be he was thankful for the assistant coaching jobs he's had in the past.
He had a leg up on others because of his last name to have the opportunities he's had in the NBA. I don't hold that against him at all; it's just a fact. Ryan seems like a really nice guy and he might be a good assistant coach. He just doesn't have the experience, credentials or even the charisma/communication skills to suggest he should be a head coach. So yes, he should be thankful for a position as an assistant coach. But honestly, I don't blame Ryan for wanting the job or accepting it. All the blame obviously falls on Glen Taylor and to some extent Rosas. I wish the best for Ryan and would have liked to see him progress through the ranks and eventually establish himself as a really good top NBA assistant before becoming a head coach.
I just look around the league and even the college ranks and see head coaches -- successful head coaches -- and lead assistants that have been grinding at the job for years and years that haven't been offered an opportunity to be a head coach at the NBA level when they probably should by now. Look no further than David Vanterpool who will likely be interviewed for open vacancies this off-season. These guys have been on multiple staffs with various roles that have groomed them for the next position. With that comes learning, added wisdom, and confidence that they know how to run a team.
And then there's Ryan Saunders... To his credit, he did spend five years with the Washington Wizards as an assistant coach, but to my knowledge he was focused on player skills and development, which isn't that big of a responsibility in comparison to other positions on the staff, in my opinion.
Fast forward to when Flip Saunders brought him over to Minnesota after he hired himself to be the head coach. The country club continued when Tom Thibodeau was hired to be the President of Basketball Operations (POBO) and head coach, but a condition from Glen Taylor was that Ryan would be kept on the staff. Do you think that kind of condition from an owner happens to any other assistant coach in the league? The answer is a resounding no.
So, a couple years later and Thibodeau gets the boot and for whatever reason Ryan is named the interim head coach even though there were ample assistant coaches on staff with more experience. He also did nothing as an interim head coach that screamed he was a keeper in the position either.
Taylor then hires Gersson Rosas to be the next POBO, but again there's a condition. Ryan is not to be fired or moved out of the head coaching position. Imagine you're at the helm of a franchise and you can't even hook your wagon to the head coach of your choosing. What a weird practice to follow for an organization that just hired a new decision-maker. Talk about handcuffing a guy. We actually have tangible evidence that Rosas might not fully support Ryan at head coach considering he denied his request to hire Sidney Lowe of all people for lead assistant and hired David Vanterpool instead.
Tell me who in the league deserves this much preferential treatment from an owner and organization? Again, if Ryan's last name was anything besides Saunders or Taylor he would have been let go long ago -- or maybe he wouldn't even have a job in the NBA right now. We don't know that for sure either. It's mind-boggling to say the least.
Camden0916 wrote:I'm sure this won't be agreed with, but I think Towns is better than Jokic and Russell is better than Murray, but everything else sides with the Nuggets over the Wolves. From the rest of the roster to the head coach and up through the front office. Minnesota could follow Denver's blueprint and theoretically become a contender in the same mold if they wanted to, or they could venture off and create their own style/advantage.
I think Towns and Russell can be as good a good as Murray and Jokic which is why I brought up the comparison of Russell to Murray. For some reason our duo has no chance to contend on this board even though we are seeing a similar duo do it for Denver.
Sure... those two could be as good or nearly as good... or possibly even better. Fair enough.
But what about the rest of the mix?
I mean the Wolves are debating making Beasley potentially 3rd on the pecking order on the court and at the bank. And he was jettisoned from Denver because he was largely irrelevant to the team's 10 man rotation.
He'd basically be PJ Dozier (who?) for Denver in the playoffs... and that's with Barton out of action. My point is that a team has to have more than just those two guys hit. Even take a guy like Millsap. He's largely overlooked but we've all see his impact for years. Just a steady player who can do the right things to help teams win. How many of those guys ever landed in Minnesota?
Taj Gibson comes to mind... but I don't even think he was as good or versatile as Millsap. Those guys are gems when you can find them. Then, there are promising guys like Porter. While we're gushing over Vanderbilt or McLaughlin or a guy who shoots 46% from the line... Porter is actually making critical shots in key playoff games.
The Wolves are just so very far behind the Nuggets... and the vast majority of it happens after we remove the top two guys from each squad.
I agree, Abe. But I wouldn't put McLaughlin and Vanderbilt in the same bucket. McLaughlin had significant productive minutes with the Wolves last season and was a key player in the Team's two most impressive wins last season. I'm not sure what Vanderbilt accomplished in the NBA before coming here, but he did nothing in his short time with the Wolves. Neither one has yet proven to be a consistently positive rotation player on a playoff team. But I'd say that McLaughlin has shown a lot of promise well beyond what Vanderbilt has shown to date. I'll add that Rosas obviously acquired Beasley based on his potential. Note also that Denver didn't believe they needed Beasley, which doesn't mean they didn't think highly of him. I see a lot of upside in him at 23 years of age. But again, he's still an unknown. I think he'll be a highly valuable rotation player for the Wolves.
Fair enough. I'd also put McLaughlin quite a bit ahead of Vanderbilt.
But that wasn't really my point.
My point is that neither one would make the Denver rotation... and probably not even the Denver roster. I disagree vehemently with Kahns that the Wolves aren't that far behind the Nuggets. The two teams rosters aren't remotely close right now. And I think he's probably sleeping on the star power, too. What more does Jokic have to do? He's the guy who's been making All NBA teams the past couple of seasons. And, hes' the guy who has shown up in the playoffs both years... raising his PPG 5 points per game while keeping his efficiency. That's a very rare feat in the history of the NBA.
And it all shows in Denver's .645 winning percentage vs. the Wolves .376 winning percentage the past two seasons.
Jokic is a better all around player then KAT I think. His passing is so valuable into setting up his teammates with open looks. Many consider him the best passing big ever.
Something to be considered though, maybe the Clips beat the Nuggets outside of the bubble. They did have home court advantage. We will never know though.
I'm curious to see how they do against the Lakers and into next season.
Camden0916 wrote:I'm sure this won't be agreed with, but I think Towns is better than Jokic and Russell is better than Murray, but everything else sides with the Nuggets over the Wolves. From the rest of the roster to the head coach and up through the front office. Minnesota could follow Denver's blueprint and theoretically become a contender in the same mold if they wanted to, or they could venture off and create their own style/advantage.
I think Towns and Russell can be as good a good as Murray and Jokic which is why I brought up the comparison of Russell to Murray. For some reason our duo has no chance to contend on this board even though we are seeing a similar duo do it for Denver.
Sure... those two could be as good or nearly as good... or possibly even better. Fair enough.
But what about the rest of the mix?
I mean the Wolves are debating making Beasley potentially 3rd on the pecking order on the court and at the bank. And he was jettisoned from Denver because he was largely irrelevant to the team's 10 man rotation.
He'd basically be PJ Dozier (who?) for Denver in the playoffs... and that's with Barton out of action. My point is that a team has to have more than just those two guys hit. Even take a guy like Millsap. He's largely overlooked but we've all see his impact for years. Just a steady player who can do the right things to help teams win. How many of those guys ever landed in Minnesota?
Taj Gibson comes to mind... but I don't even think he was as good or versatile as Millsap. Those guys are gems when you can find them. Then, there are promising guys like Porter. While we're gushing over Vanderbilt or McLaughlin or a guy who shoots 46% from the line... Porter is actually making critical shots in key playoff games.
The Wolves are just so very far behind the Nuggets... and the vast majority of it happens after we remove the top two guys from each squad.
I agree, Abe. But I wouldn't put McLaughlin and Vanderbilt in the same bucket. McLaughlin had significant productive minutes with the Wolves last season and was a key player in the Team's two most impressive wins last season. I'm not sure what Vanderbilt accomplished in the NBA before coming here, but he did nothing in his short time with the Wolves. Neither one has yet proven to be a consistently positive rotation player on a playoff team. But I'd say that McLaughlin has shown a lot of promise well beyond what Vanderbilt has shown to date. I'll add that Rosas obviously acquired Beasley based on his potential. Note also that Denver didn't believe they needed Beasley, which doesn't mean they didn't think highly of him. I see a lot of upside in him at 23 years of age. But again, he's still an unknown. I think he'll be a highly valuable rotation player for the Wolves.
Fair enough. I'd also put McLaughlin quite a bit ahead of Vanderbilt.
But that wasn't really my point.
My point is that neither one would make the Denver rotation... and probably not even the Denver roster. I disagree vehemently with Kahns that the Wolves aren't that far behind the Nuggets. The two teams rosters aren't remotely close right now. And I think he's probably sleeping on the star power, too. What more does Jokic have to do? He's the guy who's been making All NBA teams the past couple of seasons. And, hes' the guy who has shown up in the playoffs both years... raising his PPG 5 points per game while keeping his efficiency. That's a very rare feat in the history of the NBA.
And it all shows in Denver's .645 winning percentage vs. the Wolves .376 winning percentage the past two seasons.
You're literally comparing a Denver team that hasn't had significant roster changes to a current T Wolves core that has never played together. Using the last two years to compare the teams when our entire roster has been overhauled in that time and their's has had minimal changes is ridiculous. I'm comparing them to what we have now with our two core pieces, not what we've had the past two years.
Camden wrote:I just look around the league and even the college ranks and see head coaches -- successful head coaches -- and lead assistants that have been grinding at the job for years and years that haven't been offered an opportunity to be a head coach at the NBA level when they probably should by now. Look no further than David Vanterpool who will likely be interviewed for open vacancies this off-season. These guys have been on multiple staffs with various roles that have groomed them for the next position. With that comes learning, added wisdom, and confidence that they know how to run a team.
And then there's Ryan Saunders... To his credit, he did spend five years with the Washington Wizards as an assistant coach, but to my knowledge he was focused on player skills and development, which isn't that big of a responsibility in comparison to other positions on the staff, in my opinion.
Fast forward to when Flip Saunders brought him over to Minnesota after he hired himself to be the head coach. The country club continued when Tom Thibodeau was hired to be the President of Basketball Operations (POBO) and head coach, but a condition from Glen Taylor was that Ryan would be kept on the staff. Do you think that kind of condition from an owner happens to any other assistant coach in the league? The answer is a resounding no.
So, a couple years later and Thibodeau gets the boot and for whatever reason Ryan is named the interim head coach even though there were ample assistant coaches on staff with more experience. He also did nothing as an interim head coach that screamed he was a keeper in the position either.
Taylor then hires Gersson Rosas to be the next POBO, but again there's a condition. Ryan is not to be fired or moved out of the head coaching position. Imagine you're at the helm of a franchise and you can't even hook your wagon to the head coach of your choosing. What a weird practice to follow for an organization that just hired a new decision-maker. Talk about handcuffing a guy. We actually have tangible evidence that Rosas might not fully support Ryan at head coach considering he denied his request to hire Sidney Lowe of all people for lead assistant and hired David Vanterpool instead.
Tell me who in the league deserves this much preferential treatment from an owner and organization? Again, if Ryan's last name was anything besides Saunders or Taylor he would have been let go long ago -- or maybe he wouldn't even have a job in the NBA right now. We don't know that for sure either. It's mind-boggling to say the least.
Ask Jon K, Taylor doesn't meddle with basketball decisions. Clearly Saunders is our coach because after Rosas' rigorous search for a coach, Ryan was clearly the best candidate.
Taylor is the worst. Even Dolan tries to at least hire the best guys even if he can't help being annoying. Taylor can't get out of his own way. Just loving Minnesota can't be enough for all of the good will that is still shown to him by the media that he owns.
Camden wrote:I just look around the league and even the college ranks and see head coaches -- successful head coaches -- and lead assistants that have been grinding at the job for years and years that haven't been offered an opportunity to be a head coach at the NBA level when they probably should by now. Look no further than David Vanterpool who will likely be interviewed for open vacancies this off-season. These guys have been on multiple staffs with various roles that have groomed them for the next position. With that comes learning, added wisdom, and confidence that they know how to run a team.
And then there's Ryan Saunders... To his credit, he did spend five years with the Washington Wizards as an assistant coach, but to my knowledge he was focused on player skills and development, which isn't that big of a responsibility in comparison to other positions on the staff, in my opinion.
Fast forward to when Flip Saunders brought him over to Minnesota after he hired himself to be the head coach. The country club continued when Tom Thibodeau was hired to be the President of Basketball Operations (POBO) and head coach, but a condition from Glen Taylor was that Ryan would be kept on the staff. Do you think that kind of condition from an owner happens to any other assistant coach in the league? The answer is a resounding no.
So, a couple years later and Thibodeau gets the boot and for whatever reason Ryan is named the interim head coach even though there were ample assistant coaches on staff with more experience. He also did nothing as an interim head coach that screamed he was a keeper in the position either.
Taylor then hires Gersson Rosas to be the next POBO, but again there's a condition. Ryan is not to be fired or moved out of the head coaching position. Imagine you're at the helm of a franchise and you can't even hook your wagon to the head coach of your choosing. What a weird practice to follow for an organization that just hired a new decision-maker. Talk about handcuffing a guy. We actually have tangible evidence that Rosas might not fully support Ryan at head coach considering he denied his request to hire Sidney Lowe of all people for lead assistant and hired David Vanterpool instead.
Tell me who in the league deserves this much preferential treatment from an owner and organization? Again, if Ryan's last name was anything besides Saunders or Taylor he would have been let go long ago -- or maybe he wouldn't even have a job in the NBA right now. We don't know that for sure either. It's mind-boggling to say the least.
Good post, Cam. I just keep waiting for the news that the team has been sold. But I can't help but wonder whether Rosas has any latitude to replace Ryan. And how much of the decision to keep Rosas can be attributed to KAT's input? Any thoughts on that?
Nothing makes me angrier about the Wolves now than the coaching situation. You can see how Rosas has upgraded the team's talent level. We have terrific draft resources this year. Yet, we have a head coach who shouldn't be a head coach. Worse yet, we have a number of really good head coaching candidates available now who the Wolves won't even consider hiring because the team's head coaching position has been reserved for Ryan.
