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Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:04 am
by mjs34
monsterpile wrote:AD hurt his shoulder tonight and hopefully it's nothijg that's a problem long term but this could mean he plays even fewer games. It's lame but the guy should probably not be playing.
I've been thinking this for a few days but I could see neither AD or Towns making all NBA and Gobert getting 3rd team instead. He is having in some ways a career year. If the Jazz end up with a good enough record for home court and the Wolves are well under .500 some people are gonna vote for the guy on a winning team. When do people vote for all NBA anyway? They announced it like May 24 last year if I remember right. Maybe they make a run and he plays great innsome playoff games before the votes come in again I don't know when the writers media vote.
Of course maybe the Wolves play some pretty good basketball and Towns keeps playing the way he has the last stretch. The Wolves don't make the playoffs but end up near .500 (or MAYBE even better if they gonon a run after getting healthy etc) and Towns is playing really well and he ends up getting it after all. The passing has been really starting to click for him the last stretch of games. Bobby Marks mentioned on Wolfson's podcast that teams and players negotiate the percentage more of what they get for 1st 2nd and 3rd all-nba so he probably won't get that full 32 million or whatever it is even if he gets 3rd all nba but it will still be a sizable chunk of money both for him and for that cap. If Towns plays out of his mind I'll be completely fine if he gets it. Really it's the talent developing around him that will matter probably more than a few million more in cap space...
Monster the bump in salary is a provision in the CBA, so I don't think they can negotiate percentages on that. I believe Marks is either mixed up or is talking about a standard vet contract with incentives.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:18 am
by Monster
sjm34 wrote:monsterpile wrote:AD hurt his shoulder tonight and hopefully it's nothijg that's a problem long term but this could mean he plays even fewer games. It's lame but the guy should probably not be playing.
I've been thinking this for a few days but I could see neither AD or Towns making all NBA and Gobert getting 3rd team instead. He is having in some ways a career year. If the Jazz end up with a good enough record for home court and the Wolves are well under .500 some people are gonna vote for the guy on a winning team. When do people vote for all NBA anyway? They announced it like May 24 last year if I remember right. Maybe they make a run and he plays great innsome playoff games before the votes come in again I don't know when the writers media vote.
Of course maybe the Wolves play some pretty good basketball and Towns keeps playing the way he has the last stretch. The Wolves don't make the playoffs but end up near .500 (or MAYBE even better if they gonon a run after getting healthy etc) and Towns is playing really well and he ends up getting it after all. The passing has been really starting to click for him the last stretch of games. Bobby Marks mentioned on Wolfson's podcast that teams and players negotiate the percentage more of what they get for 1st 2nd and 3rd all-nba so he probably won't get that full 32 million or whatever it is even if he gets 3rd all nba but it will still be a sizable chunk of money both for him and for that cap. If Towns plays out of his mind I'll be completely fine if he gets it. Really it's the talent developing around him that will matter probably more than a few million more in cap space...
Monster the bump in salary is a provision in the CBA, so I don't think they can negotiate percentages on that. I believe Marks is either mixed up or is talking about a standard vet contract with incentives.
This is the 2nd person that has mentioned that those percentages can be negotiated. I think it's a very little known aspect of those contracts.
Edit: I found some info on this.
From Larry Coon's CBA FAQ question #24
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24
"A player's eligibility for a higher maximum salary doesn't imply he will actually receive that amount -- as with all contracts, the actual salary is a matter of negotiation between the player (or his agent) and his team. However, a Designated Rookie must receive at least 25% of the cap. In addition, for players entering their fifth season the exact percentage of the cap can be based on how the player meets the 5th Year, 30% Max criteria. For example, a rookie scale extension can specify that the player will receive 27% of the cap if he meets the criteria by being named to the All NBA Second Team, 28% if he meets the criteria by being named to the All NBA First Team, or 30% if he meets the criteria by being named Most Valuable Player."
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:49 am
by thedoper
The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:59 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:11 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
Q12543 wrote:thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
Maybe a lot of help... considering...
Davis has Jrue Holiday who is an All Defensive team guy averaging 21 / 5 / 8 and...
Julius Randle (20/9/54%)...
... and they're in 12th place in the West.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:26 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
I would honestly pick KAT 4th to start a franchise with out of that list. I just don't see 3pt shooting from the Center position being that big of a deal. Embiid is a dominant defender and force in the paint. You can build an entire effective offense around Jokic's playmaking prowess. AD is more versatile than KAT outside of pure 3pt shooting. KAT will give you stats and stretch the floor. He's very good at it, but I view what the other players bring to the table as more impactful ways to build a good team. If KAT stepped up his offense to the point that he just warps the defense around him and starts to pick them apart then I would bump him up on the list. For now though he's just really efficient and I need more if I want to win.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:31 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Q12543 wrote:thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
Maybe a lot of help... considering...
Davis has Jrue Holiday who is an All Defensive team guy averaging 21 / 5 / 8 and...
Julius Randle (20/9/54%)...
... and they're in 12th place in the West.
Their offense is top 10, defense is bottom-ish 5 or 6. I think defense can be a big wildcard in these discussions because it's always hard to attribute it to individual players in the same way you can offensive stats. So yeah, they have some sexy stats with Jrue, AD, and Randle, but the overall team defense is just not good. I'm not sure how to assign that blame.
The Wolves are somewhat similar although slightly worse on offense and slightly better on defense.
Shooters and defenders, shooters and defenders, shooters and defenders. It's really been the exact same need since Love was here. Surround either Love or KAT with some great shooters and defenders and you have yourself a perennial playoff team.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:12 pm
by Monster
Q12543 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Q12543 wrote:thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
Maybe a lot of help... considering...
Davis has Jrue Holiday who is an All Defensive team guy averaging 21 / 5 / 8 and...
Julius Randle (20/9/54%)...
... and they're in 12th place in the West.
Their offense is top 10, defense is bottom-ish 5 or 6. I think defense can be a big wildcard in these discussions because it's always hard to attribute it to individual players in the same way you can offensive stats. So yeah, they have some sexy stats with Jrue, AD, and Randle, but the overall team defense is just not good. I'm not sure how to assign that blame.
The Wolves are somewhat similar although slightly worse on offense and slightly better on defense.
Shooters and defenders, shooters and defenders, shooters and defenders. It's really been the exact same need since Love was here. Surround either Love or KAT with some great shooters and defenders and you have yourself a perennial playoff team.
JVG said how all these Pel's guy were having "great seasons" and they weren't winning. It was the team that never was though. How many games did they play with all their guys? Mirotic missed a bunch of games came back then got hurt again and probably was not effective a few games when he played. AD missed over 10 games. Elfrid Payton has played just 19 games. Should they still have been better? Was Elfrid Payton really gonna make any difference? They probably still should have been better but that team didn't really get a chance to come together...in some ways the Wolves have had a similar season in that way. Dell Demps just got fired so someone else is gonna get to try their hand at whatever the plan is going forward for that franchise.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:16 pm
by thedoper
Q12543 wrote:thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
AD had some minor injuries this year and a clear directive to get out of town. Look what AD did for his team last year. KAT has to get to that type of level before we even can look at being a perennial playoff team regardless of help. I absolutely agree that he needs help, and in terms of development he's right where he needs to be. But I think there has to be another gear where he can get to the top of the league in his aggregate numbers along with his efficiency if we're ever going to get there as a team. The real downside if we rely solely on help is that we're likely going to run out of time before we can find him that help.
One newer development I've noticed this year the almost immediate double teams coming as a defensive strategy on KAT with some varied offensive sets. I think once he gets a feel for managing a quicker response with his passing skills he's going to have a greater impact of team offense. Defense is still a question mark, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be elite on that end.
Re: The Kat problem
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:34 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
thedoper wrote:Q12543 wrote:thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
AD had some minor injuries this year and a clear directive to get out of town. Look what AD did for his team last year. KAT has to get to that type of level before we even can look at being a perennial playoff team regardless of help. I absolutely agree that he needs help, and in terms of development he's right where he needs to be. But I think there has to be another gear where he can get to the top of the league in his aggregate numbers along with his efficiency if we're ever going to get there as a team. The real downside if we rely solely on help is that we're likely going to run out of time before we can find him that help.
One newer development I've noticed this year the almost immediate double teams coming as a defensive strategy on KAT with some varied offensive sets. I think once he gets a feel for managing a quicker response with his passing skills he's going to have a greater impact of team offense. Defense is still a question mark, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be elite on that end.
His passing is already an area where he's shown measurable (and eye test) improvement as the season has progressed.
That's a great sign moving forward.