Wolves vs Portland GDT

[thedoper]

Im still failing to actually see the downside of starting Edwards. Is he developing good habits watching less talented losers in front of him? We're already out of the playoffs. This team sucks. Start him and Vando.

They may suck too but at least it will give this team a pulse and a direction.

You shouldn't even mention these two in the same sentence, as their path thus far has been completely different. We've seen this play out before where the one guy has to toil his way at the end of the bench and the G-League and ultimately overachieve in garbage time to just barely start getting rotation minutes in Year 3. In the long-run, he's probably better for it.

Meanwhile, you want to gift Edwards - who is already being spoon fed minutes - even MORE minutes that he hasn't earned. We've seen this movie before.....

No one has earned anything on this 2-6 team. Both Vando and Edwards need development against top level talent because they've shown potential. Both need better situational playing time to improve. One because they have top level talent and the other because they're at present our best option to develop a real power forward on team. I think somehow Ryan is still trying to squeak out wins by playing more experienced players who are awful, theyre not coming.

[FNG]

Im still failing to actually see the downside of starting Edwards. Is he developing good habits watching less talented losers in front of him? We're already out of the playoffs. This team sucks. Start him and Vando.

They may suck too but at least it will give this team a pulse and a direction.

You shouldn't even mention these two in the same sentence, as their path thus far has been completely different. We've seen this play out before where the one guy has to toil his way at the end of the bench and the G-League and ultimately overachieve in garbage time to just barely start getting rotation minutes in Year 3. In the long-run, he's probably better for it.

Meanwhile, you want to gift Edwards - who is already being spoon fed minutes - even MORE minutes that he hasn't earned. We've seen this movie before.....

No one has earned anything on this 2-6 team. Both Vando and Edwards need development against top level talent because they've shown potential. Both need better situational playing time to improve. One because they have top level talent and the other because they're at present our best option to develop a real power forward on team. I think somehow Ryan is still trying to squeak out wins by playing more experienced players who are awful, theyre not coming.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I might put it a little differently. I would say that none of our young players have earned any playing time on the 2-0 team that started the season. But since our prospects of winning without KAT are dim, I would give our young guys (Vando, Edwards, Reid, even McDaniels) a lot more run until he returns. I'll take development and losing by 20 over playing the vets and losing by 10. Once KAT is healthy though, everything changes. At that point in time (assuming it's soon), we become a playoff contender again in my opinion, and I expect Ryan's leash to get a lot shorter.

[thedoper]

Im still failing to actually see the downside of starting Edwards. Is he developing good habits watching less talented losers in front of him? We're already out of the playoffs. This team sucks. Start him and Vando.

They may suck too but at least it will give this team a pulse and a direction.

You shouldn't even mention these two in the same sentence, as their path thus far has been completely different. We've seen this play out before where the one guy has to toil his way at the end of the bench and the G-League and ultimately overachieve in garbage time to just barely start getting rotation minutes in Year 3. In the long-run, he's probably better for it.

Meanwhile, you want to gift Edwards - who is already being spoon fed minutes - even MORE minutes that he hasn't earned. We've seen this movie before.....

No one has earned anything on this 2-6 team. Both Vando and Edwards need development against top level talent because they've shown potential. Both need better situational playing time to improve. One because they have top level talent and the other because they're at present our best option to develop a real power forward on team. I think somehow Ryan is still trying to squeak out wins by playing more experienced players who are awful, theyre not coming.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I might put it a little differently. I would say that none of our young players have earned any playing time on the 2-0 team that started the season. But since our prospects of winning without KAT are dim, I would give our young guys (Vando, Edwards, Reid, even McDaniels) a lot more run until he returns. I'll take development and losing by 20 over playing the vets and losing by 10. Once KAT is healthy though, everything changes. At that point in time (assuming it's soon), we become a playoff contender again in my opinion, and I expect Ryan's leash to get a lot shorter.

With a season of 10 less games we're more or less out of the playoffs when KAT returns. I know that is bleak but with the strength of the West the 10 game gap that we're going to have with the other playoff teams is going to be too large to make up.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Im still failing to actually see the downside of starting Edwards. Is he developing good habits watching less talented losers in front of him? We're already out of the playoffs. This team sucks. Start him and Vando.

They may suck too but at least it will give this team a pulse and a direction.

You shouldn't even mention these two in the same sentence, as their path thus far has been completely different. We've seen this play out before where the one guy has to toil his way at the end of the bench and the G-League and ultimately overachieve in garbage time to just barely start getting rotation minutes in Year 3. In the long-run, he's probably better for it.

Meanwhile, you want to gift Edwards - who is already being spoon fed minutes - even MORE minutes that he hasn't earned. We've seen this movie before.....

No one has earned anything on this 2-6 team. Both Vando and Edwards need development against top level talent because they've shown potential. Both need better situational playing time to improve. One because they have top level talent and the other because they're at present our best option to develop a real power forward on team. I think somehow Ryan is still trying to squeak out wins by playing more experienced players who are awful, theyre not coming.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I might put it a little differently. I would say that none of our young players have earned any playing time on the 2-0 team that started the season. But since our prospects of winning without KAT are dim, I would give our young guys (Vando, Edwards, Reid, even McDaniels) a lot more run until he returns. I'll take development and losing by 20 over playing the vets and losing by 10. Once KAT is healthy though, everything changes. At that point in time (assuming it's soon), we become a playoff contender again in my opinion, and I expect Ryan's leash to get a lot shorter.

Some notes... not really addressing or refuting your post, only it made me think a bit:

1. Rubio addressed it yesterday... "the team has no identity." And that's to be expected with (1) so many new pieces and (2) no KAT. Continually changing roles, rotations and responsibilities isn't going to make that any better. The rub is how long does a coach continue what clearly isn't working.

2. I don't think there's another group of fans in the league who have seen more cases of young players on bad teams learning bad habits in a losing season. Instilling a culture of accountability is not easy. It takes time. But it has to happen at some point for any sort of sustained success. As long as the young players are being held accountable for their play -- ok. But these guys aren't dumb... or their agents and handlers aren't dumb... and it's pretty clear that Saunders is young, green and the first scapegoat to fall. Does he have the organizational clout to instill that culture, even if it means alienating certain players? Does he want to potentially risk future relationships with players in his next gig (or even compromise his chances for the gig) by alienating certain players/agents/handlers.

3. Pushing forward on points #1 and #2. Despite what we're told as we champion player movement in a star-driven league... identity matters. "Chemistry" is an intangible word in a sport increasingly being dominated by the colder, dryer world of analytics. But I would not watch basketball, play basketball, or even discuss basketball if I didn't believe that it matters -- with every fiber of my being.

4. There's a reason certain players enter/leave games at almost the exact same points game after game, or even season after season. We're all creatures of habits to some degree. And NBA players are no different. When they know their roles, and what's expected of them, they tend to perform better in relation to those roles/goals. The Wolves are lacking this right now. And when that happens, it's no surprise when it becomes more of a "I gotta get mine" culture. Or, if veterans bristle at roles they've never had before. If a team is winning... that can be ok. But if a veteran player is playing less than he's used to... and losing more than he's used to... you can see where that can cause problems, too.

[FNG]

Im still failing to actually see the downside of starting Edwards. Is he developing good habits watching less talented losers in front of him? We're already out of the playoffs. This team sucks. Start him and Vando.

They may suck too but at least it will give this team a pulse and a direction.

Im still failing to actually see the downside of starting Edwards. Is he developing good habits watching less talented losers in front of him? We're already out of the playoffs. This team sucks. Start him and Vando.

They may suck too but at least it will give this team a pulse and a direction.

You shouldn't even mention these two in the same sentence, as their path thus far has been completely different. We've seen this play out before where the one guy has to toil his way at the end of the bench and the G-League and ultimately overachieve in garbage time to just barely start getting rotation minutes in Year 3. In the long-run, he's probably better for it.

Meanwhile, you want to gift Edwards - who is already being spoon fed minutes - even MORE minutes that he hasn't earned. We've seen this movie before.....

No one has earned anything on this 2-6 team. Both Vando and Edwards need development against top level talent because they've shown potential. Both need better situational playing time to improve. One because they have top level talent and the other because they're at present our best option to develop a real power forward on team. I think somehow Ryan is still trying to squeak out wins by playing more experienced players who are awful, theyre not coming.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I might put it a little differently. I would say that none of our young players have earned any playing time on the 2-0 team that started the season. But since our prospects of winning without KAT are dim, I would give our young guys (Vando, Edwards, Reid, even McDaniels) a lot more run until he returns. I'll take development and losing by 20 over playing the vets and losing by 10. Once KAT is healthy though, everything changes. At that point in time (assuming it's soon), we become a playoff contender again in my opinion, and I expect Ryan's leash to get a lot shorter.

With a season of 10 less games we're more or less out of the playoffs when KAT returns. I know that is bleak but with the strength of the West the 10 game gap that we're going to have with the other playoff teams is going to be too large to make up.

You shouldn't even mention these two in the same sentence, as their path thus far has been completely different. We've seen this play out before where the one guy has to toil his way at the end of the bench and the G-League and ultimately overachieve in garbage time to just barely start getting rotation minutes in Year 3. In the long-run, he's probably better for it.

Meanwhile, you want to gift Edwards - who is already being spoon fed minutes - even MORE minutes that he hasn't earned. We've seen this movie before.....

No one has earned anything on this 2-6 team. Both Vando and Edwards need development against top level talent because they've shown potential. Both need better situational playing time to improve. One because they have top level talent and the other because they're at present our best option to develop a real power forward on team. I think somehow Ryan is still trying to squeak out wins by playing more experienced players who are awful, theyre not coming.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I might put it a little differently. I would say that none of our young players have earned any playing time on the 2-0 team that started the season. But since our prospects of winning without KAT are dim, I would give our young guys (Vando, Edwards, Reid, even McDaniels) a lot more run until he returns. I'll take development and losing by 20 over playing the vets and losing by 10. Once KAT is healthy though, everything changes. At that point in time (assuming it's soon), we become a playoff contender again in my opinion, and I expect Ryan's leash to get a lot shorter.

With a season of 10 less games we're more or less out of the playoffs when KAT returns. I know that is bleak but with the strength of the West the 10 game gap that we're going to have with the other playoff teams is going to be too large to make up.

Yeah, the shorter season is a factor, but this team is only 2 games out of a playoff spot even after a 6-game losing streak, and the team with KAT that beat Utah and Dallas (and squeaked by Detroit) looks to me to be better than a few of the teams ahead of us. It's been an odd season (raise your hand if you had the 2-4 Spurs going into Staples Center and winning 2 games), and I find it more difficult than usual to say which teams are clearly superior to others. Get KAT back and play with the kind of energy we showed in Utah, and this team has shown it can be quite good. Some young guys who play with a lot of energy have gotten some valuable experience with KAT and Josh out, and they are more likely to be able to help our 2 max guys and other rotation guys like Beasley and Rubio.

But the hole gets deeper with every game Kat misses. If he misses more than 5 more games, I'll join the rest of this board on the gloom and doom bandwagon.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I'm on the same page with Abe here, who explored some of the nuances of his logic.

Also, to me it is a false premise that more playing time = more development, as if it is a linear graph with an r = 1.0. There are tons of really good players that did not start out as rookies going balls-out 30+ minutes every game. And many of the ones that did were actually pretty good their rookie years, unlike Edwards.

The reason I contrast Vanderbilt and Edwards is because one young guy (Vanderbilt) has clawed and scratched his way to earn more time. I'm absolutely all for finding ways to get him more minutes at the expense of others. He's earned them. Edwards hasn't. HUUUUGEEEE difference right there. And I also believe Edwards is getting enough playing time and reps to develop. It's not like he's sitting at the end of the bench and has no clue when he'll get to play again. His role has been very stable, unlike some of the other guys.

[Coolbreeze44]

We're simply not competitive night in and night out. The main reason is we go through long stretches where we offer little to no resistance on the defensive end. Some of the runs against us have been epic.

I'm not the biggest fan, but one guy who would make a difference is Okogie. His dog mentality on D would help stem some of these runs and allow us to hang in games better. He's just one guy but in combination with Culver and Edwards could give us representative defense for stretches on the perimeter.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

We're simply not competitive night in and night out. The main reason is we go through long stretches where we offer little to no resistance on the defensive end. Some of the runs against us have been epic.

I'm not the biggest fan, but one guy who would make a difference is Okogie. His dog mentality on D would help stem some of these runs and allow us to hang in games better. He's just one guy but in combination with Culver and Edwards could give us representative defense for stretches on the perimeter.

The dilemma Ryan has though is our offense goes to crap when you play three guys that can't shoot the ball. Our version of an all-defense team would probably be Davis, Vanderbilt, Okogie, Culver, and Rubio. Not a single one of them can shoot.

This is the problem when an organization can't organically develop its draft picks into better shooters. You end up with a roster of guys that are either naturally good defenders or good shooters, but terrible at the other. No one can do both at an even passable level. And because "the system" values floor spacing more than defense, we have Jauncho getting regular minutes when on most teams he'd be the 9th or 10th man at best. He might be a worse defender than DLO!

[AbeVigodaLive]

We're simply not competitive night in and night out. The main reason is we go through long stretches where we offer little to no resistance on the defensive end. Some of the runs against us have been epic.

I'm not the biggest fan, but one guy who would make a difference is Okogie. His dog mentality on D would help stem some of these runs and allow us to hang in games better. He's just one guy but in combination with Culver and Edwards could give us representative defense for stretches on the perimeter.

The dilemma Ryan has though is our offense goes to crap when you play three guys that can't shoot the ball. Our version of an all-defense team would probably be Davis, Vanderbilt, Okogie, Culver, and Rubio. Not a single one of them can shoot.

This is the problem when an organization can't organically develop its draft picks into better shooters. You end up with a roster of guys that are either naturally good defenders or good shooters, but terrible at the other. No one can do both at an even passable level. And because "the system" values floor spacing more than defense, we have Jauncho getting regular minutes when on most teams he'd be the 9th or 10th man at best. He might be a worse defender than DLO!

Maybe. But Russell had yet ANOTHER trademark defensive possession yesterday.

Lillard beat the double team 28 feet from the basket. Russell who was standing directly in front of the rim during this ended up FURTHER away by the basket by the time Lillard got there despite seeing every millisecond of the play.

He literally moved out of his way.





And then... and this is what I've discussed before... he held out his hands in the universal "What happened?" demonstrative gesture.

That's crappy losing basketball. Debbie Downer or not... that's been Wolves basketball for many years.


[Note: It might have been Hernangomez who was also standing around watching this... and maybe even fouling for an easy And-!???]

[worldK]

We're simply not competitive night in and night out. The main reason is we go through long stretches where we offer little to no resistance on the defensive end. Some of the runs against us have been epic.

I'm not the biggest fan, but one guy who would make a difference is Okogie. His dog mentality on D would help stem some of these runs and allow us to hang in games better. He's just one guy but in combination with Culver and Edwards could give us representative defense for stretches on the perimeter.

The dilemma Ryan has though is our offense goes to crap when you play three guys that can't shoot the ball. Our version of an all-defense team would probably be Davis, Vanderbilt, Okogie, Culver, and Rubio. Not a single one of them can shoot.

This is the problem when an organization can't organically develop its draft picks into better shooters. You end up with a roster of guys that are either naturally good defenders or good shooters, but terrible at the other. No one can do both at an even passable level. And because "the system" values floor spacing more than defense, we have Jauncho getting regular minutes when on most teams he'd be the 9th or 10th man at best. He might be a worse defender than DLO!

Maybe. But Russell had yet ANOTHER trademark defensive possession yesterday.

Lillard beat the double team 28 feet from the basket. Russell who was standing directly in front of the rim during this ended up FURTHER away by the basket by the time Lillard got there despite seeing every millisecond of the play.

He literally moved out of his way.





And then... and this is what I've discussed before... he held out his hands in the universal "What happened?" demonstrative gesture.

That's crappy losing basketball. Debbie Downer or not... that's been Wolves basketball for many years.


[Note: It might have been Hernangomez who was also standing around watching this... and maybe even fouling for an easy And-!???]

I think its the play where dlo was switch on to the portland big. Dlo was
caught in no mans land there. If he get in lillards way then its a drop pass and dunk from the big. Dlo was denying the easy pass to the big and the only hope there was a weakside help or chase down block. It wasn't primarily dlo's fault but more of poot defense from the whole team.