Rockets vs Wolves

[60WinTim]

To what LST is taking about.

The players talked about the 1h and the adjustments that needed to be made as a team before thibs even walked into the lockerroom at the 1h.

[youtube]YiOio-Ny7s8[/youtube]

Kat and wiggs reiterated the same things in their postgame interviews.

I think you anti-Thibs guys are reading way too much out of this. I did not hear one interview that suggested the team made half-time adjustments on their own. What they did say is admit they were not putting the effort into the defensive end and that they collectively decided they would put in the effort in the 2nd half. If you want to call that a half-time adjustment despite Thibs, then go for it.

What is much more crystal clear from this (and other) interviews is the 180 degree turnabout in team chemistry which includes two parts, the departure of negativity with Butler and the arrival of positivity with Covington and Saric. Apparently, players are now comfortable holding each other accountable whereas they were not pre-Butler trade. And as much as we are blown away by what Rose has been able to do on the court, his value is just as important off the court.

I am in the camp with Cam and Abe where I am not as enchanted with Thibs as I once was, but the criticism he currently receives is going overboard, so I find myself in odd position of defending him...

[AbeVigodaLive]

To what LST is taking about.

The players talked about the 1h and the adjustments that needed to be made as a team before thibs even walked into the lockerroom at the 1h.

[youtube]YiOio-Ny7s8[/youtube]

Kat and wiggs reiterated the same things in their postgame interviews.

So... are you insinuating that the players saw what adjustments that needed to be made... that maybe Thibs and his staff didn't see?

Because even Jim Peterson was pointing out where guys should have been in the 1st half... and why being there in the 2nd half worked. So either the Wolves have the most clueless coaching staff in recent history, or it's as easy as guys holding themselves accountable for being where they need to be.

That being said... a HUGE part of being an NBA coach is getting players to "buy in"... and I can totally see why Thibs may struggle in that area. But as far as not knowing where guys should be on the court to defend a team... and the players themselves knowing more than the coaching staff?

Meh. That goes against everything we've been told about Thibs for the past decade. And it would speak to a level of coaching ineptitude/inability even Wolves fans haven't seen too often. Whatever it is, it's good that right now the Wolves players are making adjustments to do what they need to be done to win games.

After all, I'm still a firm believer in Players >> Coaching when it comes to winning games.


[Edit: And I'm with Tim... I don't like being in a position of defending Thibs... but it gets a bit ridiculous around here sometimes.]

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

For me, it's just hard to get over the Butler saga. That alone was a fireable offense in terms of how he handled it.

I think what is even more damning is the fact that Thibs, who has been preaching defense, second effort, blah, blah, blah to no avail for over two years only got the team to this point because he traded away a player he wanted to cling to for dear life. It exposes his inability to understand important matters like communication, what motivates people, team chemistry, etc. We sort of fell into this situation in spite of Thibs, not because of him.

All of that being said, he does deserve credit for the following: Having faith in Derrick Rose when no one else did; drafting Josh Okogie; and ultimately agreeing to the RoCo/Saric deal (although how much was Taylor/Layden driving this versus Thibs?). All of these are POBO/GM types of things. As a coach, I feel like he hasn't done much to elevate KAT and Wiggins. Wiggins has gone backwards since Thibs got here and KAT has been mostly stagnant.

[AbeVigodaLive]

For me, it's just hard to get over the Butler saga. That alone was a fireable offense in terms of how he handled it.

I think what is even more damning is the fact that Thibs, who has been preaching defense, second effort, blah, blah, blah to no avail for over two years only got the team to this point because he traded away a player he wanted to cling to for dear life. It exposes his inability to understand important matters like communication, what motivates people, team chemistry, etc. We sort of fell into this situation in spite of Thibs, not because of him.

All of that being said, he does deserve credit for the following: Having faith in Derrick Rose when no one else did; drafting Josh Okogie; and ultimately agreeing to the RoCo/Saric deal (although how much was Taylor/Layden driving this versus Thibs?). All of these are POBO/GM types of things. As a coach, I feel like he hasn't done much to elevate KAT and Wiggins. Wiggins has gone backwards since Thibs got here and KAT has been mostly stagnant.

All true. The Butler drama could (should?) get everybody fired. I have no problem firing Thibs... I'm only defending him in that he MIGHT be doing something right... even occasionally...

As for KAT and Wiggins. That's an interesting discussion. How much is on Thibs? I'm frustrated that KAT doesn't seem to be a focal point at times in the offense considering his offensive gifts. And there is stagnation there. As for Wiggins... that stagnation has been through three coaches now... and a ridiculous public plea from the owner for him to "earn that massive contract."

I know we all want to think that it's easy to reach these $150M players in their early 20s, and that there is a coach out there to do so... but I think there are even more coaches who will struggle with that task IF the player doesn't buy in to improving themselves in every way.

Coaches don't make championship HOF players. I can't think of a single one. Players either have it in them -- or they don't.

I'm 100% certain Andrew Wiggins is not a HOF player. We'll learn a lot in the next couple of years whether KAT has it in himself to push himself to the level he needs to get to...

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, I 100% agree that it's mostly on the players to improve themselves. But a coach can certainly influence how that player is utilized. For example, why is it that Thibs still chooses to give Wiggins isolation/ball handling responsibilities? He has proven time and again that he is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA in these situations. He should be an off-the-ball cutter and spot up 3-point shooter, with the occasional post-up in favorable matchups. My guess is he'd actually be a much more effective and efficient player with sort of role versus spoon-feeding him pick and roll and perimeter isolation sets that usually lead to a missed shot or turnover.

[Lipoli390]

I just watched Gibson's interview. My main take-aways have nothing to do with Thibodeau's head coaching issues.

One of the more interesting comments was Gibson's saying that players have always been talking and trying to hold each other accountable, but the difference since the Butler trade is that the players are now doing it in a positive way. He mentioned that Rose was one of the most vocal vets at halftime.

Another interesting comment was about young guys playing free and easy (first half), but how the vets have to remind them that "we're playing for something" and to take it personally.

Overall, what went on in the lockerroom at half time strikes me as an example of veteran leadership from Taj and Rose, getting the rest of the team to get serious, take some pride in themselves and play with purpose and heart. I suspect the message was directed to Teague as much as it was to KAT and Wiggins. It might have also been directed to Covington who was playing matador defense for the first time since coming here. The good news is that the message got through as Wolves players played aggressive defense, actually challenging three-point shots as well as shots in the paint.

I suspect that the best teams have players who hold each other accountable. And I'll credit Thibodeau the PBO for bringing in vets like Gibson and Rose, more recently Covington, who can help build that culture of accountability. I've never thought of Thibodeau as someone who inspires his players, so it needs to be the players who inspire one another.

My issue with Thibodeau has always been tactical. The Wolves are dong a lot more switching on defense now. I recall Teague complaining recently that the Wolves switch less than all the other teams in the League. Did Thibodeau finally adjust based on the will of complaining players or because he now has Covington? We all saw the chart from last season showing that opposing teams feasted against the Wolves from behind the arc and in the paint, suggesting that Thibodeau focused his defensive strategy on stopping two-point jump shots. And we all know that the Wolves were dead last in 3-point attempts last season. Those things don't just happen - they reflect the way the players are instructed and drilled in practice and in games. That's especially true with a coach as controlling and directive as Thibodeau. The good news is that Thibodeau seems to finally be modifying his strategic approach on both ends. Unfortunately, he still runs a stagnant offense that will ultimately hold this team back. Maybe Thibodeau will adjust that as well, but I'm not holding my breath.

But when it comes to effort, the players have to hold each other accountable. And I'll credit Thibodeau the PBO for bringing in players who can do just that and, other than Butler, do it effectively.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

At what point does Thibodeau deserve credit for the positive things this team does? Or is that never going to be the case?

I think it's never going to be the case until the players themselves start to give Thibs some credit. When I attend games (and read quotes from the locker room) it appears to me that Thibs has lost this team, and that they are playing around him sometimes rather than for him. It's astonishing to me how seldom the players say anything positive about the coach, and either openly criticize him or ignore him. Examples? Teague questioning Thibs' rotations and refusal to play Tyus enough or Okogie. Players actually taking themselves out of the game when they are tired rather than waiting for Thibs to make a move. 20-year-old rookie Okogie (and others) completely ignoring the head coach during time outs. After a stirring second half comeback, Towns pointedly saying postgame that the players made defensive adjustments in the locker room rather than waiting for Thibs. And on and on. If not before, Thibs lost this team last summer with his baffling inaction during the Butler drama. Fortunately this team has more talent than most other teams in the league, so they are going to win a lot of games...but it seems to me they are winning in spite of Thibs rather than because of him.

LST, you know I have love for you on this forum, but I find your takes regarding Thibodeau to be in the silly category. You generate your own feelings and emotions of disliking him and hoping for his downfall and eventual displacement from the franchise as though they were coming from the Wolves players themselves.

Teams that have quit on the coach don't often play as well as the Wolves have over the last 11 games -- winning eight of them.

Players are rarely asked directly about their feelings towards the head coach, but there have been more "we trust in Thibs' game plan" and "Thibs always has us prepared" comments than there have been open criticisms.

Your examples of negativity towards the coach are mild and once again reading into something that isn't there. Teague had made a comment about wanting to see Jones get more run since he had been playing well. That's more of a vote of confidence towards the young guard than it is a jab at the coach and I'd bet it was received that way from the locker room too.

A 20-year old rookie was enjoying himself on the bench during a pretty exciting game. Oh, no! Fire Thibs. He must secure all happiness at once.

Players often diagnose what they're doing wrong. That's the nature of the game. Again, you see it as players disregarding the coach -- weirdly enough -- when in reality it was likely just a reminder amongst themselves of what they had been doing beforehand that was successful for them: helping the helper, rotating down on P&R, contesting three-point shooters, getting back on defense, etc. All things we know Thibs likely stresses every chance he gets and it's likely, just maybe, that the coach implemented the same or different strategies during halftime himself.

Thibs is not without his faults, but the constant overanalyzing and overall lack of positive credit that goes his way is well past the point of ridiculousness. You'd think Thibs was Kurt Rambis with how he's talked about yet he's somehow getting this team to win when most considered this a lost season from the jump. Amazing. The idea that this team is somehow winning in spite of their coach is silliness to me.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.

Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?

Who?

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.

Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?

Who?

Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.