khans2k5 wrote:We will not make the playoffs if we trade Butler and that's just something you can't do going into KAT's contract negotiations. We're a .500 team without Jimmy. That's not good enough in the West and that step back may finish off this franchise for another decade.
I disagree. We would probably be fighting for the last spot just like this year. Jimmy's not going to play 82 anyway. I think holding on to Butler has a better chance of harming us for the next decade than trading him does.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We were sub .500 without Jimmy. He played 59 games last year. Swapping his minutes with a rookie is just not gonna be a playoff team. You trade him to Memphis who was out of the playoffs last year and you seal our fate of not making it into the playoffs this year.
Yeah we can disagree on this. I'm also thinking if KAT is as good as everyone believes he is, couldn't we make him the focal point of the offense and let him blossom? If he's getting 25+ - 12+ shouldn't he be able to carry us to the 8th spot? I mean after you add whatever we get from a potential Butler deal. We would still have a good, younger roster to build around.
Kevin Love's 25/12 couldn't get us to the playoffs so why would KAT's? We've seen this play out before and it never resulted in a playoff birth so I don't understand the confidence with an even younger roster than that team to make the playoffs.
Never resulted in a playoff birth? Garnett did it annually. Don't you expect KAT to be better than Love? If not, I get your point.
lipoli390 wrote:If you believe that the KAT/Butler duo under Thibodeau will eventually contend for the Western Conference championship, then you don't trade Butler this summer. I'm with Cool in concluding that a KAT/Butler duo will not challenge Golden State or even Houston next season. My evidence? The fact that the Wolves needed a home win the last game of the season just to make the playoffs in a season when everyone but Butler was largely healthy and Gibson had a career year. And if we end up in the bottom 4 and a first round playoff exit next season with KAT and Butler as I think we will, then I don't see Butler hanging around as a free agent. And even if he does stay, his career history tells us he can't be counted on to play more than 65-67 games. Moreover, even when healthy, he's simply not at the same level as a James Harden, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant or LeBron James. Recall also that Butler played in all but one of our most unacceptable losses last season -- including the home loss to Atlanta.
If we want the Wolves to have the best chance of making the playoffs next season, then we should keep Butler. That's the likely floor for a Butler/KAT led Wolves team, but the ceiling isn't much higher than the floor. To contend for a championship in the long run, the Wolves need to add another elite player young enough to peak and remain at his peak concurrently with KAT's peak years at the same time the Warriors begin to decline through age or attrition. The only way the Wolves can possibly do that is to trade Butler this summer.
I think Memphis would swap their #4 pick, Parsons and their #32 pick for Butler. I think the #4 pick could land us an elite talent. The #20 and 32 picks would give us two chances to land at least one very solid young player. Putting those three picks together with KAT, Wiggins and Tyus Jones probably puts us back in the lottery, but it gives us a young foundation of players who can grow together and possibly develop into a title contender in the post-Warriors era. That's much better in my view than being a cap-strapped 6th, 7th or 8th seed worried about whether Butler will bolt next summer as a FA or push us far above the luxury tax with no chance of adding the personnel we'd need to become a contender.
Why can't we be a playoff team with Jimmy and then re-tool around KAT and Wiggins after Jimmy's next deal is done to go for the title? Why are the only options trade Jimmy and start rebuilding again for a title run in a 5 years or keep Jimmy and never win a title and be a playoff bottom feeder? Trading Jimmy puts us back in the lottery. That's a step back in hopes that you can eventually step forward. Why can't we stand our ground, get some depth, be the 4/5 seed that we would have been with some depth this year and then go for the title down the line when it makes sense? You don't have to take steps back to move forward.
Great post. Putting us back in the lottery at this point only moves KAT closer to wanting out. If people thought he was miserable last year imagine when he realizes that he's not good enough to lead a team into contention on his own. We trade Jimmy or Wig to improve our current assets, not so we can rebuild now. Rebuilding now when KAT is not at his prime is foolish. Let's keep giving him the opportunity to get in the playoffs and show growth.
If KAT can't get us to the playoffs, who cares if he wants out?
Well at that time we'd be re-tooling around two 20 PPG scorers in their prime. I think it's foolish to believe they are who they are at 22 years. Look at the best players in the league. Outside of Giannis, Simmons and Embiid, none of them are as young as Wiggins and Towns. Young players don't run this league. People need to get over this perception that our 22 year olds need to be top 10-20 guys right now or they'll never get there. All the top young guys in the league have room to grow including our guys.
Wiggins will be 24 before the next season ends.
And at some point, years of NBA experience trumps chronological age. After 4 years and 320+ games... Wiggins should be showing statistical signs of improving... not regressing.
So your expectations were Wiggins stats should have significantly increased after we added Jimmy? His usage fell off from 29 to 23.4 and he's supposed to show an increase in statistical output? That kind of hierarchy change we had takes more than a year to figure out Imo. If Wiggins is same old same old this year I'll jump on board the he's never getting better train, but in a year where most young players his caliber are given the keys to really take over, he had to take a step back to Jimmy.
Not necessarily. But it would have been cool if he had improved statistically in even one offensive area... especially efficiency. Watching a young talented guy who posted solid to good volume stats on losing teams become less efficient on a team that makes the playoffs... was disappointing.
Worse stats:
- PPG
- APG
- FG% loo
- FT%
- 3FG%
- TS%
- OWS
- WS
- OBPM
- PER
su]Better stats:
- REB
- DWS
- DBPM (still a negative though)
- BPM (still a negative though)
- VORP (still a negative though)
- TO
Look... for the 4th straight season... I'm going to give Andrew Wiggins the benefit of the doubt more often than not. Because he's really just that important for the future of the franchise. We have to hope for him to improve. But after 332 games of high-volume but low-efficiency play that statistically has largely stagnated or regressed... I'm worried.
I don't see how anybody wouldn't be worried at this point.
Andrew's maddening inconsistency and weaknesses has us all more than worried. But I'll tell you one thing, when the bright lights of the playoffs shined on this team, Andrew was the guy who didn't look out of place or overwhelmed. If he hadn't played so poorly in the last game, I think his narrative would be a little different. The ability to rise to the occasion means something to me.
Hi cool, on this one I'm going to have to partially agree/disagree. I recall Wiggins having one good game and the rest was pretty mediocre (getting the ball swiped consistently, defense worsened, efficiency struggled, free throws missed, etc). I'll admit for a game or two he was better than what he typically was, but that glimmer of hope to me is more of a sell high type moment than it was he's worth his contract type candle light.
mrhockey89 wrote:Hi cool, on this one I'm going to have to partially agree/disagree. I recall Wiggins having one good game and the rest was pretty mediocre (getting the ball swiped consistently, defense worsened, efficiency struggled, free throws missed, etc). I'll admit for a game or two he was better than what he typically was, but that glimmer of hope to me is more of a sell high type moment than it was he's worth his contract type candle light.
Hey Hockey, I'm sure you're not alone in that thinking. Even I don't think the contract looks very good right now.
What franchise in their right mind was going to give Andrew Wiggins the keys to take over after what he had shown in three full NBA seasons? Wiggins himself doesn't even want to take over. The guy is a floater and it's undeniable at this point. Just hope he can be a useful player moving forward because the "star potential" label is fading quickly.
Camden0916 wrote:What franchise in their right mind was going to give Andrew Wiggins the keys to take over after what he had shown in three full NBA seasons? Wiggins himself doesn't even want to take over. The guy is a floater and it's undeniable at this point. Just hope he can be a useful player moving forward because the "star potential" label is fading quickly.
The Pacers sure were dumb handing the keys to Oladipo when he showed almost 0 all-star potential between Orlando and OKC.
khans2k5 wrote:We will not make the playoffs if we trade Butler and that's just something you can't do going into KAT's contract negotiations. We're a .500 team without Jimmy. That's not good enough in the West and that step back may finish off this franchise for another decade.
I disagree. We would probably be fighting for the last spot just like this year. Jimmy's not going to play 82 anyway. I think holding on to Butler has a better chance of harming us for the next decade than trading him does.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We were sub .500 without Jimmy. He played 59 games last year. Swapping his minutes with a rookie is just not gonna be a playoff team. You trade him to Memphis who was out of the playoffs last year and you seal our fate of not making it into the playoffs this year.
Yeah we can disagree on this. I'm also thinking if KAT is as good as everyone believes he is, couldn't we make him the focal point of the offense and let him blossom? If he's getting 25+ - 12+ shouldn't he be able to carry us to the 8th spot? I mean after you add whatever we get from a potential Butler deal. We would still have a good, younger roster to build around.
Kevin Love's 25/12 couldn't get us to the playoffs so why would KAT's? We've seen this play out before and it never resulted in a playoff birth so I don't understand the confidence with an even younger roster than that team to make the playoffs.
Never resulted in a playoff birth? Garnett did it annually. Don't you expect KAT to be better than Love? If not, I get your point.
KAT is much closer to Love than KG. KG is one of the best defensive players of all time. That's why his teams made the playoffs and why his good teams were contenders with him as the best player.
Andrew's ability to "rise to the occasion" works against him because the question then becomes, "why do we see THIS player ten times in an 82-game schedule?" He just doesn't bring the same energy/intensity/focus from game to game and that's always been my biggest issue with him. Shot-making/shot-creation can come and go, I get that slumps happen, but it's his energy output that should never waver.
Camden0916 wrote:What franchise in their right mind was going to give Andrew Wiggins the keys to take over after what he had shown in three full NBA seasons? Wiggins himself doesn't even want to take over. The guy is a floater and it's undeniable at this point. Just hope he can be a useful player moving forward because the "star potential" label is fading quickly.
The Pacers sure were dumb handing the keys to Oladipo when he showed almost 0 all-star potential between Orlando and OKC.
Perhaps not All-NBA potential, but Victor Oladipo was actually improving each year in Orlando. His VORP increased from 0.8 to 1.3 and then 2.3 -- his PER, TS%, and WS/48 all improved year to year as well -- before getting traded for Serge Ibaka. He wasn't a good fit next to Russell Westbrook in Oklahoma City, but there was a pattern of improvement before that season. So, it's not all that comparable to Wiggins, in my opinion. He's either the same player or worse than the 19-year old rookie version of himself and has yet to be a positive player in the NBA.
