Minnesota Sports Forum

I think there's a lot of teams that have to overpay to get free agents to come and play for their teams. The only way to get discount free agents is to be a contender as I see it. Our only path to contention is still the development of KAT and Wiggins mixed with a 3rd player like Butler. If they don't get better we need to tank again anyway. Thibs gave KAT and Wiggins a great shot to show the league Minnesota is worth coming to. If they can't step up and improve we're never going to be a player in Free agency. No GM would have changed that reality for our squad.

longstrangetrip wrote:I don't know if it's denial or loyalty/optimism that causes some posters here to choose to ignore comments that well-connected guys like Thorpe and Dudley make about players' reluctance to play for Thibs, but I fear Glen Taylor has a similar attitude. Glen is basically a positive-attitude guy and he has a lot of dollars invested in Thibs, so I get why he might want to ignore negative comments about Thibs...it's frankly easier and cheaper for him to just let Thibs stay through his contractual period. But it's hurting this team and wasting the window we have to be a true challenger, and leading to us getting guys like CJ Williams in free agency rather than someone who is a true NBA player.

Thorpe's comments about Minneapolis being an attractive destination for an NBA player mirrors what anyone in the search business will say...Minneapolis is one of the most difficult markets to get somebody to move from. The Wolves' difficulty in bringing in top-notch talent pre-Thibs was not because the coach or the city was a deterrent...it was mostly because free agents didn't see enough talent on the roster, and most NBA players want a chance to contend. Now the city is still attractive and the roster is loaded with talent, but unfortunately reports are that the coach keeps many players away. We can choose to believe these sources or dismiss them. My choice is to believe them. I wish that was Glen's choice too.

I'm not ignorant of the situation. Do players like Thibs....majority probably not. But the MAJOR reason we didn't get a splashy guy is that we didn't have the money to pursue that guy. And I have worked in an office for 20 years where we have a string of transplants moving to MN. I can honestly say that NONE of them have ever stated (prior to arrival), yeah, I was looking forward to the move to MN (because of weather and the fact that you can't appreciate all we have here until you get here and experience). Once here, however, I would say that almost every one has loved the city and the state. As with the folks I work with, MN is simply not a destination for star athletes in any sport. Never has been. We win in this state by making good decisions....which certainly I fully admit this basketball team has not done in the past.

thedoper wrote:I think there's a lot of teams that have to overpay to get free agents to come and play for their teams. The only way to get discount free agents is to be a contender as I see it. Our only path to contention is still the development of KAT and Wiggins mixed with a 3rd player like Butler. If they don't get better we need to tank again anyway. Thibs gave KAT and Wiggins a great shot to show the league Minnesota is worth coming to. If they can't step up and improve we're never going to be a player in Free agency. No GM would have changed that reality for our squad.

This is pretty much my feelings also on the situation.

I understand people are frustrated with Thibs and I would say the people who defend Thibs the most (Myself, Kahns, Doper, Monster, Hicks) don't even love thibs and feel like there are things that are somewhat concerning but I feel like there is a such a bias against him that make feel like we love Thibs so much.

Thibs has signed 2 of the best free agent signings in Wolves history in Taj and Teague (low bar for Wolves history). He was able to sign Crawford instead of Crawford going to a contender like the Cavs that were reported. Also Crawford said one of the main reasons that he signed with the Wolves was the recommendation of Thibs from Lavine. So should Thibs get some credit on that, idk, I think so. D rose was a solid min signing in the waiver period. MGH picked the wolves over Magic. Cole Aldrich opted out of the Clippers and picked us over the Suns and Magic (via bleacher report). Tolliver picked the Wolves over the Clippers and the Clippers flew out Balmer and Doc to try and sign him. Bazz picked us over the Lakers

In the end Thibs has made mistakes no doubt, the Gorgui contract is one of the worst contracts in the NBA. Wiggins has not come close to living up the max contract. But Im just confused on the moves that Thibs could have made to put us over the top into title contenders. I mean we could of went all in for Lowry instead of Teague and Taj. Could of done the same thing for Millsap. Im just confused on what people wanted Thibs to do to put this team over the top. He has also not drafted well Dunn over Murray and some poor luck on Patton injury.

Now we have people complaining to complain about signing CJ Williams to a 2-way fucking contract. He started 17 games on a 42 win team. I mean that is good value even if CJ Williams has low upside. I mean who knows about Amilee Jefferson, we don't even know if he could do anything in the NBA and he didn't get a active roster contract with any other team. And its not like Jefferson is this spring chicken he is already 25.

I just think people are trying to find a way to bitch about Thibs because of his personality but if you really want to complain why not complain about Flip drafting guys that haven't lived up to there potential yet. Also picking Bazz over Greak Freak. And having CJ McCullom on the undraftable list.

In the end it comes down to can Towns be a top 5 player in the league and can Wiggins develop into at least an all-star and if not, we are what we are a solid playoff team and not a contender and that falls on Towns, Wiggins, Flip, Thibs and and a lot of people in between.

Hicks123 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I don't know if it's denial or loyalty/optimism that causes some posters here to choose to ignore comments that well-connected guys like Thorpe and Dudley make about players' reluctance to play for Thibs, but I fear Glen Taylor has a similar attitude. Glen is basically a positive-attitude guy and he has a lot of dollars invested in Thibs, so I get why he might want to ignore negative comments about Thibs...it's frankly easier and cheaper for him to just let Thibs stay through his contractual period. But it's hurting this team and wasting the window we have to be a true challenger, and leading to us getting guys like CJ Williams in free agency rather than someone who is a true NBA player.

Thorpe's comments about Minneapolis being an attractive destination for an NBA player mirrors what anyone in the search business will say...Minneapolis is one of the most difficult markets to get somebody to move from. The Wolves' difficulty in bringing in top-notch talent pre-Thibs was not because the coach or the city was a deterrent...it was mostly because free agents didn't see enough talent on the roster, and most NBA players want a chance to contend. Now the city is still attractive and the roster is loaded with talent, but unfortunately reports are that the coach keeps many players away. We can choose to believe these sources or dismiss them. My choice is to believe them. I wish that was Glen's choice too.

I'm not ignorant of the situation. Do players like Thibs....majority probably not. But the MAJOR reason we didn't get a splashy guy is that we didn't have the money to pursue that guy. And I have worked in an office for 20 years where we have a string of transplants moving to MN. I can honestly say that NONE of them have ever stated (prior to arrival), yeah, I was looking forward to the move to MN (because of weather and the fact that you can't appreciate all we have here until you get here and experience). Once here, however, I would say that almost every one has loved the city and the state. As with the folks I work with, MN is simply not a destination for star athletes in any sport. Never has been. We win in this state by making good decisions....which certainly I fully admit this basketball team has not done in the past.

Hicks, I agree that lack of cap space is the primary reason we couldn't sign anyone significant this season. Now, some of us would argue that Thibs has mishandled the cap (More dollars and an extra year for Teague over Rubio, investing way too many millions n Dieng/Gibson, etc.) but that's another issue. The argument guys like Thorpe and Dudley are making though is that even if the Wolves has plenty of space, there is a prevailing belief around the league that Thibs is not a good coach to play for for several reasons.


I know what you are saying about Minnesota as a transfer destination in the business world. Search people often say it's a difficult market to get people to transfer to, and an even more difficult market to get them to transfer from. I would argue that the NBA is a different situation than the larger business world in that it is so self contained. It's a small community where everyone knows everyone, and opinions form and remain solid. Two of those opinions according to Thorpe are that Minnesota is an attractive community to be part of, and that Thibs is not a good coach to play for. Granted, not everyone shares these opinions, but Thorpe says it is the prevailing one.


My sense is that Butler will be gone next year and the Wolves will have some cap space with which to try to attract a very good free agent. My hope is that we have a new coach in place by then...otherwise, I fear that we will find out that Thorpe is right about Thibs.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I don't know if it's denial or loyalty/optimism that causes some posters here to choose to ignore comments that well-connected guys like Thorpe and Dudley make about players' reluctance to play for Thibs, but I fear Glen Taylor has a similar attitude. Glen is basically a positive-attitude guy and he has a lot of dollars invested in Thibs, so I get why he might want to ignore negative comments about Thibs...it's frankly easier and cheaper for him to just let Thibs stay through his contractual period. But it's hurting this team and wasting the window we have to be a true challenger, and leading to us getting guys like CJ Williams in free agency rather than someone who is a true NBA player.

Thorpe's comments about Minneapolis being an attractive destination for an NBA player mirrors what anyone in the search business will say...Minneapolis is one of the most difficult markets to get somebody to move from. The Wolves' difficulty in bringing in top-notch talent pre-Thibs was not because the coach or the city was a deterrent...it was mostly because free agents didn't see enough talent on the roster, and most NBA players want a chance to contend. Now the city is still attractive and the roster is loaded with talent, but unfortunately reports are that the coach keeps many players away. We can choose to believe these sources or dismiss them. My choice is to believe them. I wish that was Glen's choice too.

I'm not ignorant of the situation. Do players like Thibs....majority probably not. But the MAJOR reason we didn't get a splashy guy is that we didn't have the money to pursue that guy. And I have worked in an office for 20 years where we have a string of transplants moving to MN. I can honestly say that NONE of them have ever stated (prior to arrival), yeah, I was looking forward to the move to MN (because of weather and the fact that you can't appreciate all we have here until you get here and experience). Once here, however, I would say that almost every one has loved the city and the state. As with the folks I work with, MN is simply not a destination for star athletes in any sport. Never has been. We win in this state by making good decisions....which certainly I fully admit this basketball team has not done in the past.

Hicks, I agree that lack of cap space is the primary reason we couldn't sign anyone significant this season. Now, some of us would argue that Thibs has mishandled the cap (More dollars and an extra year for Teague over Rubio, investing way too many millions n Dieng/Gibson, etc.) but that's another issue. The argument guys like Thorpe and Dudley are making though is that even if the Wolves has plenty of space, there is a prevailing belief around the league that Thibs is not a good coach to play for for several reasons.


I know what you are saying about Minnesota as a transfer destination in the business world. Search people often say it's a difficult market to get people to transfer to, and an even more difficult market to get them to transfer from. I would argue that the NBA is a different situation than the larger business world in that it is so self contained. It's a small community where everyone knows everyone, and opinions form and remain solid. Two of those opinions according to Thorpe are that Minnesota is an attractive community to be part of, and that Thibs is not a good coach to play for. Granted, not everyone shares these opinions, but Thorpe says it is the prevailing one.


My sense is that Butler will be gone next year and the Wolves will have some cap space with which to try to attract a very good free agent. My hope is that we have a new coach in place by then...otherwise, I fear that we will find out that Thorpe is right about Thibs.

LST,
I don't disagree with anything you said.

Kegeek said it well.....it just feels like no matter what occurs right now, it is always a Thibs issue, and some of us just disagree with that narrative. There are certainly other contributing factors to our success, lack thereof, and FA choices made by players.

All that being said, I am also in the camp that says we need a new coach to lead in today's NBA. I think Thibs, like it or not, brought with him some characteristics this team needed at the time. He brought with him an all-NBA talent, some toughness, and led us to the playoffs. The playoff thing has been debated to death, but I am in the camp that it was a necessary first step in our building a contender, despite being and 8 seed and despite losing in first round.

And the Jimmy issue is a tough one. I absolutely love the player. I said it last season, but there are maybe 5+ guys I trade him for today. I am not saying he is a top 5 player, but he would be top 5 (or so) on my team if I had to build a team from scratch for various reasons. The issue is exactly what you stated....it feels more and more like he wants to leave. So now, what do we do? I believe a $180MM contract will be a poor investment after about year 2 of that deal (due to injuries and such), so what now? I think we play things out this season and see where we lie at the trade deadline. As long as he is healthy, he will have a multitude of teams interested because he is a stud and his contract is manageable from a trade value standpoint. Or as you say, we have some cap space to work with.

My problem with Thibs the GM - In three full off seasons, he has yet to add enough three point shooting. Our current 4-wing rotation has absolutely no one that can hit 3's in high volume. That's inexcusable.

My problem with Thibs the Coach - Thibs the GM has actually done some good things to add toughness and defense to the roster (specifically Butler and Taj), yet he has failed to coach up everyone else. Given the types of dramatic turnarounds I've seen other coaches deliver with similar personnel, this is a major disappointment coming from a supposed defensive guru.

Yet all of that being said, we did win a bunch more games last year and finally made the playoffs. He deserves another shot this year, but the leash is getting shorter.

Some of the back and forth here has been good. Hicks last post made me think its a good time for me to outline where I think the franchise is at for me personally when it come to coaching and personnel decisions.

I'm not really a bigtime Thibs guy at this point. I was in favor of hiring him if we were going with the experienced coach route. I was hesitant giving him full power. That doesn't mean I thought it was a horrific idea but I wouldn't want to do that with pretty much any coach....including Flip neither did Glen. Layden wasn't exactly the first choice either, but I wasn't down on him as the front office guy brought in. He had some positives on his resume and The negatives of his time with the Knicks...Well sometimes people make mistakes in a bad situation whatever. People can become better and he worked for the Spurs and so that helps. Ultimately we were adding 2 NBA lifers who have been around the game for longer than some of us have been alive to run a real NBA franchise. We could have some hope these guys won't be Rambis/Kahn (that really does sound forboding doesn't it?) level bad at least and we had the supposed heavy lifting done with the top end talent already. These guys were brought in to take us to the next level after a bad situation with Flip passing away...and remember Flip was taking over a dumpster fire of Kahn...and Flip was only on the job for basically a little over 2 years. This franchise was moving in the right direction but wasn't that far from being a complete joke about 2 years ago...except Adelman was the coach.

So to this point they have done some good things and we finally made the playoffs and had a legitimately talented team that actually won games. Thibs is Thibs Layden is boring and They haven't really found any young pieces to add. I don't think too many people other than Cam really rip them for the Dunn pick mostly because it was dealt but I think most people agree that the options at that pick were very close as most of us were pretty split in who we wanted and a lot of folks around the league were very high on Dunn. The one people really have a problem with is the Patton pick and/or maybe dealing for Jimmy when we could have had Markkanen (many here didn't want to pick him lol). I'll mention here that yesterday I watched the Wolves/Clippers last meeting in the G-league which was pretty much the end of the season for both teams. CJ Williams was pretty good (36 points) but what I was most impressed with was his passing. Meanwhile Patton's passing was....VERY impressive for any big much less a guy with his size. The guy just looks like a guard at this level whipping passes around the court. There are legit questions about his other parts of his game, but that passing aspect really is very intriguing. My thing has been that I think this front office didn't quite have enough to say whether they couldn't get it done or not. I thought both the decision making as coach and front office could use one more chance to show what they could do. The draft I think most people are feeling relatively positive about.

The other thing was why I was wanting to see what Thibs could do was I didn't see a sure option to replace him as a coach. A few months ago that changed though. Coach Bud was probably the best guy available. I would have taken him over Thibs...depending on the front office decision maker that was added. Bud may have decided to be a coach, but I think he still feels like he wants to have alot of influence (coaches should have plenty of input IMO) but he clearly has an eye toward winning games sooner than later. I think there are some concerns that he would be banging the table for win now moves. Other than that I think Casey would fit nicely here as he is a good dude and all that, but I don't know if he is the guy to take us to the championship level either. So there were a couple good coaching options that were not available during the season. Only one I see as a clear upgrade over Thibs overall. Would Bud have picked the Wolves over the Bucks? Idk and I honestly don't lose any sleep over not having him as the coach here.

As for Thibs impact on FA.. Let's remember that anyone within reason that we may want the Wolves to pursue might not be a guy the Wolves were looking at targeting for whatever reason. This isn't just the Wolves but it happens with various other teams also. Players have to be interested and teams have to be interested in the players. I listened to Dudley's appearance on Woj's podcast. It was interesting overall. His mention of Thibs seemed more along the lines of hard practices etc more than anything else and that is one thing Thibs has changed up. Is what Dudley say concerning? Yeah it is to some extent, but I don't think it's all that damning either. The thing I thought was most interesting about the whole conversation was Dudley talking about the relationships with referees and players. Thibs has brought in some guys here because he is Thibs. Does he scare off some guys? Yes I am sure he does. His treatment of the bench (and some guys underperforming in their roles) this last year doesn't bode well for guys looking at the Wolves and hoping for an opportunity. I do try and give Thibs the benefit of the doubt but thats a real thing there. You probably also have some guys looking at Taj and Rose doing well back under Thibs and think...yep Thibs knows how to get something out of the right guys. I might the right type of guy. Thibs got plenty out of some guys in Chicago also. One of the problems was they have had some legit miscalculations when it came ot free agents they have added. If they add the right type of players that could have a pretty significant impact both on the floor and what coach Thibs has and will work with.

So basically I'm in the same place I have been for the past few months. I want to see what coach Thibs and Layden Thibs can do with and for this franchise going forward. I'm concerned as to whether they are the right guys for the job but I am also willing to give them a chance to actually make the right moves and do their jobs well. They aren't going anywhere obviously so lets see what they can do. So far this offesason has shown some positive signs in building the roster. I think Tolliver is the type of guy this team needs. Solid player that adds shooting knows his role and will be a leader and will play the right way. THe draft picks make alot of sense for what the roster needs and the way this roster is constructed and what Thibs likes out of players. Rose signed for the min. Cj Williams makes a ton of sense as a 2-way signing. Terrell is a flyer type that fits th new NBA of positionless players and he has an effortless jumper and enough handle to actually get it off. With the resources this team had going in it seems like the moves have made sense to me. There is some legit worrisome stuff out there. How much of that stuff is a big deal? Idk. How much of it can be figured out in the coming weeks? Idk? What is the potential level of this roster this season to win and therefore make some of this stuff basically go away? I think there is more potential for this team to climb higher than most people do. Keeping most of the roster together and adding in pieces around it that fit better could really boast things and we aren't done yet adding to the team. There is legit concern about what happens with Butler but I think there should be some real optimism about what this team can do this season as well. I don't think we have to be tied to living in one world and not the other. I think we can be in both. Go Wolves.

I'm sure everyone is dying to get a glimpse of Luol Deng here is your chance. No Dieng...they have so many bigs on team Africa.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24199770/nba-africa-game-luol-deng-john-collins-javale-mcgee-players-added-rosters-confirmed

longstrangetrip wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I don't know if it's denial or loyalty/optimism that causes some posters here to choose to ignore comments that well-connected guys like Thorpe and Dudley make about players' reluctance to play for Thibs, but I fear Glen Taylor has a similar attitude. Glen is basically a positive-attitude guy and he has a lot of dollars invested in Thibs, so I get why he might want to ignore negative comments about Thibs...it's frankly easier and cheaper for him to just let Thibs stay through his contractual period. But it's hurting this team and wasting the window we have to be a true challenger, and leading to us getting guys like CJ Williams in free agency rather than someone who is a true NBA player.

Thorpe's comments about Minneapolis being an attractive destination for an NBA player mirrors what anyone in the search business will say...Minneapolis is one of the most difficult markets to get somebody to move from. The Wolves' difficulty in bringing in top-notch talent pre-Thibs was not because the coach or the city was a deterrent...it was mostly because free agents didn't see enough talent on the roster, and most NBA players want a chance to contend. Now the city is still attractive and the roster is loaded with talent, but unfortunately reports are that the coach keeps many players away. We can choose to believe these sources or dismiss them. My choice is to believe them. I wish that was Glen's choice too.

I'm not ignorant of the situation. Do players like Thibs....majority probably not. But the MAJOR reason we didn't get a splashy guy is that we didn't have the money to pursue that guy. And I have worked in an office for 20 years where we have a string of transplants moving to MN. I can honestly say that NONE of them have ever stated (prior to arrival), yeah, I was looking forward to the move to MN (because of weather and the fact that you can't appreciate all we have here until you get here and experience). Once here, however, I would say that almost every one has loved the city and the state. As with the folks I work with, MN is simply not a destination for star athletes in any sport. Never has been. We win in this state by making good decisions....which certainly I fully admit this basketball team has not done in the past.

Hicks, I agree that lack of cap space is the primary reason we couldn't sign anyone significant this season. Now, some of us would argue that Thibs has mishandled the cap (More dollars and an extra year for Teague over Rubio, investing way too many millions n Dieng/Gibson, etc.) but that's another issue. The argument guys like Thorpe and Dudley are making though is that even if the Wolves has plenty of space, there is a prevailing belief around the league that Thibs is not a good coach to play for for several reasons.


I know what you are saying about Minnesota as a transfer destination in the business world. Search people often say it's a difficult market to get people to transfer to, and an even more difficult market to get them to transfer from. I would argue that the NBA is a different situation than the larger business world in that it is so self contained. It's a small community where everyone knows everyone, and opinions form and remain solid. Two of those opinions according to Thorpe are that Minnesota is an attractive community to be part of, and that Thibs is not a good coach to play for. Granted, not everyone shares these opinions, but Thorpe says it is the prevailing one.


My sense is that Butler will be gone next year and the Wolves will have some cap space with which to try to attract a very good free agent. My hope is that we have a new coach in place by then...otherwise, I fear that we will find out that Thorpe is right about Thibs.

Yes, Thibs is responsible for the lack of cap or luxury tax space to sign better free agents. And that is certainly the biggest factor in the Wolves failure to sign better free agents this summer. So Thibs is responsible for the biggest factor. Yet, unless you think Dudley and Thorpe are lying, it's clear Thibodeau is also responsible for the failure to attract better secondary free agents.

I think you're probably right that Butler will likely leave next summer. Unfortunately, assuming we sign KAT to the max extension, I don't think we'll have much cap space after factoring in the salaries of Teague, Wiggins, Gorgui and KAT's new contract.

If you make a list of the Wolves FAs and think about it a bit...maybe it's not that hard to see we have added some value guys ourselves at the time of the signings. On the other end of the spectrum yeah we paid up for a guy like Taj. GS paid a bunch of money for Iggy and the Spurs paid Pau a healthy sum also. Not even the best franchises are always able to get their guys at bargain rates. This team hasn't gotten enough out of some the lower end of the roster. It only takes a couple of the right signings and draft picks to make improvements there. It feels like this offseason the additions make a lot more sense. Even Rose makes some sense to me as a shot creator when everyone else that has been added is probably more of a complimentary offensive guy.

The narrative of Thibs being a negative factor could switch around pretty quickly if a couple young players (including Tyus) look good this season and another vet like Rose or Dieng has solid contributions as well. If a couple of those things happen the Wolves would also win more games etc and...you get the idea. I'm interested to see how things play out and again I think there is some reason for optimism. To me one part of that is Tolliver probably makes more sense as a rotation guy and likely to contribute towards helping this roster more than any bench player the Wolves has last year with the possible exception of Tyus.