Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

Camden wrote:khans, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't it you who argued that scoring is easily replaceable in other positions whereas rim protection is a massive component to what bigs need to bring to the table?

The point I'm making is that we've had bigs that are/were good/great scorers who have defensive issues (and Okafor DOES have issues), and we've gone no where in the win column because the painted area is a free pass for opposing teams. Repeating this trend and selecting Okafor when Towns, who could potentially dominate both ends of the floor, is available wouldn't sit well with me, as the board already knows.

Towns may have more defensive potential but has huge issues too. He could be very foul prone for a while from what I've seen and although he is athletic still needs some work on his labored footwork. The idea that Okafor doesn't have defensive potential is a bit silly to me at this point in his development.

We have never had a big with the potential to be the efficient scorer in the paint that Okafor is. Not many teams ever have because he is one of the most efficient scorers to come out of college ball in a while. Okafor will finish at the hoop guaranteed. That is saying a lot.

Is Towns foul prone? Or has he been playing free and clear because Calipari demanded he get more physical? I tend to side with the latter, but I guess it's a valid concern. And dammit doper, we've had this "footwork" debate already. You, for some reason, think because Okafor has great feet on offense think it translates to defense. Well, it hasn't. He's slow-footed on defense and will be picked on in P&R. And when he isn't failing to guard the perimeter, he's not altering shots at the rim. Guards finish over him with ease.

Please, forum, don't think that I'm bashing Okafor because I don't like him (he remains No. 2 on my board by a large margin), but he is not a perfect prospect and saying his defense is poor right now is an understatement.

Note: Doper, in previous posts with you, I've also acknowledged many times that I believe Okafor will be fine guarding post players 1v1 in the NBA. It's the other aspects of defense where he frightens me.

Yes, Okafor is a good bet to be a very good scorer in the NBA. We also had a better scorer in Kevin Love and failed to make the playoffs (to be fair, there were other reasons that played a part in this) and defense was one of the bigger reasons why. We have got to get better defensively and Okafor doesn't help that movement no matter how good/great his scoring ability is.

Just to clarify my issue with Okafor isn't just his rebounding but just his physicality and motor which probably has something to do with his issues on the defensive end. If I am picking a center top 5 they better be good because like I said in another thread they might only be really good for an entire season for like 2-3 years before they start missing games. Both Towns and Okafor are nice prospects no doubt. I think it will be interesting to see how they measure out also.

Camden wrote:khans, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't it you who argued that scoring is easily replaceable in other positions whereas rim protection is a massive component to what bigs need to bring to the table?

The point I'm making is that we've had bigs that are/were good/great scorers who have defensive issues (and Okafor DOES have issues), and we've gone no where in the win column because the painted area is a free pass for opposing teams. Repeating this trend and selecting Okafor when Towns, who could potentially dominate both ends of the floor, is available wouldn't sit well with me, as the board already knows.

I don't know if I said that and in general I do go for rim protection over offense from bigs, but after looking at the scoring the current crop of C's in the league are providing I am going with Okafor because he has the chance to be special in a category where Cousins is really the only other special guy out there. If you put 4 floor spaces/cutters around Okafor I think it is a shut it down lets go home level of offensive efficiency. In general it is a very difficult to be a good post scorer in college because you don't have as many floor spacers and when you do they don't space the floor far enough with the college 3 line where you really have any space to operate to begin with. The fact that he is dominating with actual post play and not a bunch of put backs leaves me that much more impressed as you can see he is pretty much doubled all game and seemingly every time he isn't it's a bucket. Space to operate in the post just gets so much bigger in the pro's that I think it will be hard to stop an offense led by him on the interior pending you put competent shooters around him.

In the post season half-court, grinding out, offensive possessions are needed to win games when the defense clamps down and he is a half-court offense savant in college and I think his game is helped by the added spacing the NBA offers over college. I'd much rather trust an Okafor post up than anything we have right now and I think in general post ups are a better look than giving someone the ball and ask them to create the game winning look off the dribble from the perimeter. We'll have KG and Payne as help defenders behind him to help protect the rim and the only time I think his defense will be a problem is against teams with a stretch 4 who can pull KG and Payne away from the bucket which still is only a part time problem and not full-time.

With our PG being such a scoring detriment I don't think we can get away without an elite scorer in the front court which we won't have if we come out of the draft with Towns. We'd be a good defensive team with Ricky, Wiggins, Towns, but Wiggins having to be the top scorer and wing defender is a tough task to assign someone. That's going to wear him down extremely fast. In the Towns scenario the bulk of our scoring would come from the 2-3 in the starting lineup which is too perimeter focused in my mind. If you get Okafor you have a more balanced offense with scoring on the perimeter and in the post. I don't ever see Towns as an elite offensive option so who is our Randolph, Griffin, Duncan, Howard, LA, Dirk, etc. That piece would still be missing and lunch pail bigs who can rebound and play defense are in much greater supply than really good frontcourt scorers.

Camden wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden wrote:khans, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't it you who argued that scoring is easily replaceable in other positions whereas rim protection is a massive component to what bigs need to bring to the table?

The point I'm making is that we've had bigs that are/were good/great scorers who have defensive issues (and Okafor DOES have issues), and we've gone no where in the win column because the painted area is a free pass for opposing teams. Repeating this trend and selecting Okafor when Towns, who could potentially dominate both ends of the floor, is available wouldn't sit well with me, as the board already knows.

Towns may have more defensive potential but has huge issues too. He could be very foul prone for a while from what I've seen and although he is athletic still needs some work on his labored footwork. The idea that Okafor doesn't have defensive potential is a bit silly to me at this point in his development.

We have never had a big with the potential to be the efficient scorer in the paint that Okafor is. Not many teams ever have because he is one of the most efficient scorers to come out of college ball in a while. Okafor will finish at the hoop guaranteed. That is saying a lot.

Is Towns foul prone? Or has he been playing free and clear because Calipari demanded he get more physical? I tend to side with the latter, but I guess it's a valid concern. And dammit doper, we've had this "footwork" debate already. You, for some reason, think because Okafor has great feet on offense think it translates to defense. Well, it hasn't. He's slow-footed on defense and will be picked on in P&R. And when he isn't failing to guard the perimeter, he's not altering shots at the rim. Guards finish over him with ease.

Please, forum, don't think that I'm bashing Okafor because I don't like him (he remains No. 2 on my board by a large margin), but he is not a perfect prospect and saying his defense is poor right now is an understatement.

Note: Doper, in previous posts with you, I've also acknowledged many times that I believe Okafor will be fine guarding post players 1v1 in the NBA. It's the other aspects of defense where he frightens me.

Yes, Okafor is a good bet to be a very good scorer in the NBA. We also had a better scorer in Kevin Love and failed to make the playoffs (to be fair, there were other reasons that played a part in this) and defense was one of the bigger reasons why. We have got to get better defensively and Okafor doesn't help that movement no matter how good/great his scoring ability is.

Kevin Love never gave us the options on offense that we will have with a legitimate low post scorer. Love played on the elbow out and we brought in coach to facilitate that. Our offense will be totally different with Okafor's abilities to create space by getting the ball in the low post.

Okafor is already as good of a defender as much of what we have up front, so we would be well prepared for improvement. Your statement that guards finish over him with ease is a bit of an exaggeration Cam. He alters shots quite a bit and is usually in position to do so. He just isn't as energetic and enthusiastic as Towns. Plus he doesn't have the freedom to roam that Towns does playing next to WCS. Defensively Okafor has more responsibility and since it isn't the strongest component of his game the issue is magnified.

Q or Mikkeman, can we get some analytics on just how bad Okafor's defense is? From my eyes only, he looks like he gets finished on often, especially by guards attacking him in P&R situations. And I have to believe his opponent's % at the rim is too high whereas his shot-blocking % is putrid. Both of which would support my claim that Okafor does NOT alter shots.

PS: Anyone can fact check or disprove me. I'm working at the moment.

thedoper wrote:

Camden wrote:khans, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't it you who argued that scoring is easily replaceable in other positions whereas rim protection is a massive component to what bigs need to bring to the table?

The point I'm making is that we've had bigs that are/were good/great scorers who have defensive issues (and Okafor DOES have issues), and we've gone no where in the win column because the painted area is a free pass for opposing teams. Repeating this trend and selecting Okafor when Towns, who could potentially dominate both ends of the floor, is available wouldn't sit well with me, as the board already knows.

Towns may have more defensive potential but has huge issues too. He could be very foul prone for a while from what I've seen and although he is athletic still needs some work on his labored footwork. The idea that Okafor doesn't have defensive potential is a bit silly to me at this point in his development.

We have never had a big with the potential to be the efficient scorer in the paint that Okafor is. Not many teams ever have because he is one of the most efficient scorers to come out of college ball in a while. Okafor will finish at the hoop guaranteed. That is saying a lot.

I'd argue we did with Al Jefferson, and at times, pekovic. Though he has been horrible this season, in my opinion.

TheFuture wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden wrote:khans, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't it you who argued that scoring is easily replaceable in other positions whereas rim protection is a massive component to what bigs need to bring to the table?

The point I'm making is that we've had bigs that are/were good/great scorers who have defensive issues (and Okafor DOES have issues), and we've gone no where in the win column because the painted area is a free pass for opposing teams. Repeating this trend and selecting Okafor when Towns, who could potentially dominate both ends of the floor, is available wouldn't sit well with me, as the board already knows.

Towns may have more defensive potential but has huge issues too. He could be very foul prone for a while from what I've seen and although he is athletic still needs some work on his labored footwork. The idea that Okafor doesn't have defensive potential is a bit silly to me at this point in his development.

We have never had a big with the potential to be the efficient scorer in the paint that Okafor is. Not many teams ever have because he is one of the most efficient scorers to come out of college ball in a while. Okafor will finish at the hoop guaranteed. That is saying a lot.

I'd argue we did with Al Jefferson, and at times, pekovic. Though he has been horrible this season, in my opinion.

All accounts say Okafor can actually pass. That being said, Jefferson would be nice on this team right now. I really don't know what to say about Pek. I am so down on him right now it hurts me to even think about it.

Big Al is only effective if he is the central figure of your offense. And if he IS that central figure, your team isn't going to be very good. He's a real catch 22.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Big Al is only effective if he is the central figure of your offense. And if he IS that central figure, your team isn't going to be very good. He's a real catch 22.

Nothing survives a black hole. He literally sucks franchise down into mediocrity.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Big Al is only effective if he is the central figure of your offense. And if he IS that central figure, your team isn't going to be very good. He's a real catch 22.

Nothing survives a black hole. He literally sucks franchise down into mediocrity.

Pretty much