Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I love love love the mismatch aspect of starting Wig at the 2. It is lost however when starting Prince next to him. Any guy that the Wolves hope guard Wig will undoubtedly be put on Prince. The best defender will still guard Wiggins. Shabazz needs to be starting in this scenario.
Good point, but the logic is you feature Wiggins as the scorer and Prince defends the better player. If you run Shabazz out there I think you put Wiggins on the better player.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Minnesota sports fans are so easy to appease. They are undeniably loyal, certainly to a fault. They believe just about everything a talking head from one of our teams spews. They always believe that the future looks bright, and that the team is on the right course. I'm talking in generalities of course, not specifically about people on this forum. Here is just a small list of what the typical Minnesota sports fan believes:
Timberwolves:
- Sam Mitchell was an obvious choice to be head coach and things are going to be different (better) now.
- Our young players are all going to turn out to be studs
- KG and the geriatric bunch are going to instill a winning culture in our kids and help them become better players
- Most if not all of our players are going to have career years
- It's just a matter of time before everything comes together and we are a consistent playoff team
Twins:
- Ron Gardenhire was a good manager
- Terry Ryan Knows what he is doing and will push all the right buttons, even though we had 4 consecutive 90 loss seasons
- Just wait until all of our young prospects get here, then we are really going to be something
Vikings:
- Rick Spielman is a great General Manager (Even though there is zero evidence to back it)
- Teddy Bridgewater is going to be an elite, franchise level quarterback
- Our offensive line is going to be fine, just need some time to gel
- We can compete with the best teams in the league even though we don't have a passing game
Wild:
- We don't need an upgrade at center - we're good enough up the middle to contend
- The team's defense first structure is a winning strategy, even if we can't score goals.
It's harder to come up with examples for the Wild because that group actually has good leadership and smart people at the top. But you can see my point here. Minny fans will believe just about anything that keeps hope alive. I'd like to hear from Q about how different the attitude is in Philly.
Even though I don't agree with most of these points in this way I will offer this. I don't want to be miserable watching sports or really doing anything in life. I generally try and tease out the positive in a scenario. I do want to cheer for my team.
In Minnesota there is a definite flip side to the type of fan you are describing as well. The one who is waiting for something to go wrong, and sees everything that is wrong before it happens. Who goes silent while watching games live rather than cheering because they expect the worst. And lives there life in misery because of professional sports.
I think that both types of fans are legitimate response to trauma.
Camden wrote:I don't know what I'm more confused by: Mitchell's decision to start Prince at SF, or all of those that are actually supporting the decision. Wolves followers baffle me at how they're so willing to support bad choices by management, as if they don't know that management has been wrong a LOT.
Let's just say the few of us who seem to "support the decision" are more on the side of "we understand the logic behind the decision" and are merely willing to give it a chance to play out...
I liked your idea of starting Bjelica at SF. But he will need time to adjust to the NBA, which was quite apparent in the last game. I also think we really need his minutes at PF since the next guy up at PF is Payne...
Agree 100% Tim. Not saying anything but I am giving Sam a chance and that his reasoning is logical from a perspective. Basically the big move is really moving Wiggins to the 2. And then he is saying Wiggins is ahead of Martin, and for now Prince is ahead of Bazz to teach him how to play D. Yes this is going to affect Zach's role, but there is a real possibility that Zach still isn't ready for meaningful contributions other than x factor spot minutes.
Yeah, I think I get the logic now of the decision. From a pure wins/losses standpoint, it doesn't make sense because we are putting out a starting unit that is going to have a hell of a hard time scoring. But if Sam is insistent on starting games by setting a strong defensive tone, than this is probably about the best 5-man defensive unit we can field. Now when Prince and KG sit at the 5-minute mark, we'll be down 10-6 instead of 15-11. Yay I guess?
Camden wrote:I don't know what I'm more confused by: Mitchell's decision to start Prince at SF, or all of those that are actually supporting the decision. Wolves followers baffle me at how they're so willing to support bad choices by management, as if they don't know that management has been wrong a LOT.
Let's just say the few of us who seem to "support the decision" are more on the side of "we understand the logic behind the decision" and are merely willing to give it a chance to play out...
I liked your idea of starting Bjelica at SF. But he will need time to adjust to the NBA, which was quite apparent in the last game. I also think we really need his minutes at PF since the next guy up at PF is Payne...
Agree 100% Tim. Not saying anything but I am giving Sam a chance and that his reasoning is logical from a perspective. Basically the big move is really moving Wiggins to the 2. And then he is saying Wiggins is ahead of Martin, and for now Prince is ahead of Bazz to teach him how to play D. Yes this is going to affect Zach's role, but there is a real possibility that Zach still isn't ready for meaningful contributions other than x factor spot minutes.
Yeah, I think I get the logic now of the decision. From a pure wins/losses standpoint, it doesn't make sense because we are putting out a starting unit that is going to have a hell of a hard time scoring. But if Sam is insistent on starting games by setting a strong defensive tone, than this is probably about the best 5-man defensive unit we can field. Now when Prince and KG sit at the 5-minute mark, we'll be down 10-6 instead of 15-11. Yay I guess?
Personally I think it is really about developing and motivating Bazz. You don't have to be a genius to recognize that if he could up his defensive game, he could have a long NBA career. We have already seen how motivated he seems. I think putting him behind Tay could be smart for his motivation, provided that he gets ample opportunity in terms of minutes and is rewarded if he does improve. I can't see a scenario where this lasts longer than a month because I do think Bazz will respond, but we will see. Anyway you put it, it is a bold statement, which is why there is likely such a visceral response to this decision. But based on our defense over the last 10 years, I really don't mind a bold statement. The real test will be how quickly Tay gets the hook if it is obviously not working.
Agree Doper. I'm starting to get interested in a Bazz/Wiggins starting lineup, but if Tayshaun is playing better than start him and let Bazz take it over.
Camden wrote:I don't know what I'm more confused by: Mitchell's decision to start Prince at SF, or all of those that are actually supporting the decision. Wolves followers baffle me at how they're so willing to support bad choices by management, as if they don't know that management has been wrong a LOT.
Let's just say the few of us who seem to "support the decision" are more on the side of "we understand the logic behind the decision" and are merely willing to give it a chance to play out...
I liked your idea of starting Bjelica at SF. But he will need time to adjust to the NBA, which was quite apparent in the last game. I also think we really need his minutes at PF since the next guy up at PF is Payne...
Agree 100% Tim. Not saying anything but I am giving Sam a chance and that his reasoning is logical from a perspective. Basically the big move is really moving Wiggins to the 2. And then he is saying Wiggins is ahead of Martin, and for now Prince is ahead of Bazz to teach him how to play D. Yes this is going to affect Zach's role, but there is a real possibility that Zach still isn't ready for meaningful contributions other than x factor spot minutes.
Yeah, I think I get the logic now of the decision. From a pure wins/losses standpoint, it doesn't make sense because we are putting out a starting unit that is going to have a hell of a hard time scoring. But if Sam is insistent on starting games by setting a strong defensive tone, than this is probably about the best 5-man defensive unit we can field. Now when Prince and KG sit at the 5-minute mark, we'll be down 10-6 instead of 15-11. Yay I guess?[/quote]
LOL - Q you are a gem
Camden wrote:I don't know what I'm more confused by: Mitchell's decision to start Prince at SF, or all of those that are actually supporting the decision. Wolves followers baffle me at how they're so willing to support bad choices by management, as if they don't know that management has been wrong a LOT.
Let's just say the few of us who seem to "support the decision" are more on the side of "we understand the logic behind the decision" and are merely willing to give it a chance to play out...
I liked your idea of starting Bjelica at SF. But he will need time to adjust to the NBA, which was quite apparent in the last game. I also think we really need his minutes at PF since the next guy up at PF is Payne...
Agree 100% Tim. Not saying anything but I am giving Sam a chance and that his reasoning is logical from a perspective. Basically the big move is really moving Wiggins to the 2. And then he is saying Wiggins is ahead of Martin, and for now Prince is ahead of Bazz to teach him how to play D. Yes this is going to affect Zach's role, but there is a real possibility that Zach still isn't ready for meaningful contributions other than x factor spot minutes.
Yeah, I think I get the logic now of the decision. From a pure wins/losses standpoint, it doesn't make sense because we are putting out a starting unit that is going to have a hell of a hard time scoring. But if Sam is insistent on starting games by setting a strong defensive tone, than this is probably about the best 5-man defensive unit we can field. Now when Prince and KG sit at the 5-minute mark, we'll be down 10-6 instead of 15-11. Yay I guess?
Personally I think it is really about developing and motivating Bazz. You don't have to be a genius to recognize that if he could up his defensive game, he could have a long NBA career. We have already seen how motivated he seems. I think putting him behind Tay could be smart for his motivation, provided that he gets ample opportunity in terms of minutes and is rewarded if he does improve. I can't see a scenario where this lasts longer than a month because I do think Bazz will respond, but we will see. Anyway you put it, it is a bold statement, which is why there is likely such a visceral response to this decision. But based on our defense over the last 10 years, I really don't mind a bold statement. The real test will be how quickly Tay gets the hook if it is obviously not working.
I think this move could be positive for Muhammad. Instead of being buried behind Wiggins and his 35+ minutes, he's behind Tay on the depth chart and likely to be subbed into the game in the first quarter. Of course, Sam could sub in Martin first and move Wig to SF, but I think that if Shabazz continues to work hard on defense, he will be the first wing off the bench. Tay has always had a great defensive reputation, and I think Sam wants Bazz watching him at the start of games. I look at this move as just an interim step on the way to a Wig/Bazz starting wing pairing, and I'm very much in favor of that down the line.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Minnesota sports fans are so easy to appease. They are undeniably loyal, certainly to a fault. They believe just about everything a talking head from one of our teams spews. They always believe that the future looks bright, and that the team is on the right course. I'm talking in generalities of course, not specifically about people on this forum. Here is just a small list of what the typical Minnesota sports fan believes:
Timberwolves:
- Sam Mitchell was an obvious choice to be head coach and things are going to be different (better) now.
- Our young players are all going to turn out to be studs
- KG and the geriatric bunch are going to instill a winning culture in our kids and help them become better players
- Most if not all of our players are going to have career years
- It's just a matter of time before everything comes together and we are a consistent playoff team
Twins:
- Ron Gardenhire was a good manager
- Terry Ryan Knows what he is doing and will push all the right buttons, even though we had 4 consecutive 90 loss seasons
- Just wait until all of our young prospects get here, then we are really going to be something
Vikings:
- Rick Spielman is a great General Manager (Even though there is zero evidence to back it)
- Teddy Bridgewater is going to be an elite, franchise level quarterback
- Our offensive line is going to be fine, just need some time to gel
- We can compete with the best teams in the league even though we don't have a passing game
Wild:
- We don't need an upgrade at center - we're good enough up the middle to contend
- The team's defense first structure is a winning strategy, even if we can't score goals.
It's harder to come up with examples for the Wild because that group actually has good leadership and smart people at the top. But you can see my point here. Minny fans will believe just about anything that keeps hope alive. I'd like to hear from Q about how different the attitude is in Philly.
The Wild are built the ideal way for any team in any sport. They have a stable of quality young talent that is getting better every year, all-stars in their prime and quality fill in veteran leaders. The next step will be to filter out the fill in vets like Koivu, Vanek and Pominville in the coming years with more quality young talent as our young talent hopefully develops into all-stars and our current all-stars become the fill in vets as they age. The Wolves are missing the middle group which just happens to be the most impactful and important.
If the Wolves have a future as a perennial playoff team and championship contender that future is in the young athletic first round picks on the roster playing an up-tempo high octane high scoring style of basketball. Starting the 35-year old Prince does nothing to advance towards that future.
The best hope for this team long term is a dynamic wing duo of Wiggns and LaVine. That's the starting wing combination that should start the season as Mitchell initially intended. And that combination should have been given every opportunity to succeed together this season, including an extended run on the court together from the beginning. Wiggins won rookie of the year at SF. He's at his best offensively near the bucket and his ballhandling is still well below the standard for modern day NBA SGs. LaVine struggled in his 4 preseason games, but he was excellent the last 3 weeks of last season. And according to Sam himself, LaVine has been the team's best player in practice this camp.
Ok, so Sam has it in his head that our best hope is to be bigger than other teams at the two wing positions. Never mind that no other winning team in today's NBA has pursued that strategy and succeeded. Even if you buy Sam's baffling "out-size-them" strategy, no one on this planet can possibly justify Prince as Wiggins' wing mate on this rebuilding team just starting the second year of the rebuilding process with Shabazz and Bjelica on the roster.
Someone suggested that Sam is either a genius or a moron. Well, Sam is absolutely positively no genius!! I'm already looking forward to the end of the season when hopefully our paltry 20-23 wins will convince this organization to join the other 29 NBA teams who have no interest in Sam Mitchel as their head coach. Then we have to hope that this organization is smart and non-parochial enough to higher one of the widely recognized elite head coaching prospects around the League.
i can accept what Sam is doing with Prince, but not accept LaVine playing PG. I think it is clear that Martin is the odd player out on this team and he brings value and is block any development of LaVine. I would love to see us trade Martin. I would love to trade him to the Bulls for Portis and fillers.
