Anyone up for a moral victory? Raptors/Wolves GDT

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.

So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.

Edit: Here is some supporting data:

2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3

2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)

Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?

Wow, very revealing Q. So, trading Butler might help with the Butler/KAT chemistry, but still would leave us with a KAT/Teague problem. Teague is off to a great start this season so I'm reluctant to call for more Jones playing time, but Tyus' on/off numbers continue to lead the team, and he might be the answer to jump-starting KAT. Maybe the answer is pairing Tyus and Teague together more.

It's all just so effed up. Butler is clearly our best player still so trading him is a net loss even if our overall chemistry improves.

As for Tyus, we have never seen him in a sustained starting role where he is playing against starting-caliber players for 20+ games. Me thinks his +/- would fall off if he were put in this position. Regardless, he knows how to get the ball to KAT and will happily defer to him. Teague and Butler clearly don't. Both will be gone by next season. I hope we can keep Tyus, but it depends what kind of offer he gets in RFA.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think the problem with KAT is fairly simple. In my opinion he was told by management/ownership when he signed his deal that Butler would not be staying with the Wolves. And now he's pissed because he made the long term commitment but Thibs is showing no signs of moving Jimmy. I'm not necessarily taking KAT's side, but I think this is what you are seeing. You can decide for yourself whether KAT should be able to put his differences aside and ball to the best of his abilities. But realize he flat out hates Butler, and I can't blame him for that.

[Big O [enjin:13874644]]

As for Tyus, we have never seen him in a sustained starting role where he is playing against starting-caliber players for 20+ games. Me thinks his +/- would fall off if he were put in this position. Regardless, he knows how to get the ball to KAT and will happily defer to him. Teague and Butler clearly don't. Both will be gone by next season. I hope we can keep Tyus, but it depends what kind of offer he gets in RFA.

Doesn't Teague have a player option? If so no one else is going to pay him $19M. He'll be back unless he is traded.

[mjs34]

The answers are right in front of us. While I don't see Tyus as a starting PG in the NBA, we should switch he and Teague. It gives a chance to see how Tyus does before deciding what to offer him next season. It may also piss Teague off so he opts out next year.

For the love of god don't start playing Tyus and Teague together. Our defense already sucks enough as it is.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

As for Tyus, we have never seen him in a sustained starting role where he is playing against starting-caliber players for 20+ games. Me thinks his +/- would fall off if he were put in this position. Regardless, he knows how to get the ball to KAT and will happily defer to him. Teague and Butler clearly don't. Both will be gone by next season. I hope we can keep Tyus, but it depends what kind of offer he gets in RFA.

Doesn't Teague have a player option? If so no one else is going to pay him $19M. He'll be back unless he is traded.

Need to hope he might want some longer term security instead of the single season payday.

[kekgeek]

As for Tyus, we have never seen him in a sustained starting role where he is playing against starting-caliber players for 20+ games. Me thinks his +/- would fall off if he were put in this position. Regardless, he knows how to get the ball to KAT and will happily defer to him. Teague and Butler clearly don't. Both will be gone by next season. I hope we can keep Tyus, but it depends what kind of offer he gets in RFA.

Doesn't Teague have a player option? If so no one else is going to pay him $19M. He'll be back unless he is traded.

Teams have salary cap this offseason. Majority of teams don't have cap space next offseason. PG market is dry this offseason. He might opt in but he might decide to opt out and take a little less money for long term security. Whenever he becomes a free agent it will be his last chance at bigger money. More money is available this offseason

[Monster]

Just finished watching the game here are my thoughts before reading through the thread.

Wolves played good in that 1st quarter on both ends. The ball just didn't go down.

Tolliver had a heck of a 1st half stint. Have I said how much I like that signing?

Wiggins wants to play in Toronto but not against Leonard. Lol

Towns getting more of guys on his screens. I'll take a few fouls there if it means he actually takes a big step towards being a good screener.

Teague has been very good running things. He looked more like Rubio than dribbling Jeff.


Give me Josh Okogie good and bad. He has exceeded my expectations

What's with Butler missing FTs?! That steal and breakaway in the 4th he looked tired.

Guys In general look like they are just or there ballin. Dieng Tolliver Okogie Rose etc look comfortable. Teague was really dealing. Towns is the guy that doesn't look like he is feeling it and he was getting touches in this game.

I know people don't like moral victories but it feels like for the most part the Wolves played fairly well especially under all the circumstances.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

If you watch KAT in pick and roll, there are only two guards that have consistently gotten the ball back to KAT for a good look: Rubio and Tyus Jones. Teague and Butler consistently don't deliver the ball back to KAT. Or if they do, it's in a less advantageous position.

So I think part of the problem is he simply doesn't like playing with Teague and Butler for legitimate on the court reasons. And yeah, whatever other drama exists in the locker room or in their personal lives is just piling on.

Edit: Here is some supporting data:

2017-18 Player Pair Net Ratings:
KAT/Teague +6.0
KAT/Butler +10.2
KAT/Jones +10.3

2018-19 Player Pair Net Ratings (thru 5 games):
KAT/Teague -2.1
KAT/Butler -6.1
KAT/Jones +21.8 (!!!)

Do ya think there might be some chemistry issues!?

I've watched KAT in the PnR. He doesn't know how to operate properly out of a PnR. He sets a shitty screen and then he either half ass fades to the 3 pt line or he half ass rolls to the rim rather than diving the basket for a layup. Tyus and Ricky operate to pass the ball so they make the passing lanes with their movement. Teague and Jimmy operate to score the ball so KAT needs to go to the right places to create those passing lanes. KAT should be a PnR God with his skill set and yet he doesn't make good movement decisions when in that action to help out guys who aren't looking to get him the ball as the first look out of the PnR. Set a good screen and get to the top of the key quickly. Set a good screen and dive to the bucket hard. If he does both of those it will open up the passing pocket, but right now he sets a bad screen a majority of time and then fades or tries to hang out in the pocket that doesn't exist because his bad screen didn't create the space for it to exist. When you're all upper body strength and have chicken legs you won't be able set good screens unless you put in the work to be in the way of the defender. That's what he needs to work on. I've seen him do it so I know he can do it. He just needs to do it more often.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

I think the problem with KAT is fairly simple. In my opinion he was told by management/ownership when he signed his deal that Butler would not be staying with the Wolves. And now he's pissed because he made the long term commitment but Thibs is showing no signs of moving Jimmy. I'm not necessarily taking KAT's side, but I think this is what you are seeing. You can decide for yourself whether KAT should be able to put his differences aside and ball to the best of his abilities. But realize he flat out hates Butler, and I can't blame him for that.

This is a major problem with athletes today. I can't get what I want, so I torpedo my franchise? At least a miserable Butler is still competing at a very high level.

Personally, while I hate how this went down, I think Butler is just flat out correct in his assessment of his teammates. Over the past 2 years, this board consensus was that the VAST majority would take a core of Towns/Wiggins over any other core in the league. Is that still the case? It wasn't for me then, and it certainly isn't now. Both Towns and Wiggins on the surface have everything a fan could want....size, athleticism, skill....yet both are underachievers in various ways. You absolutely have to have a solid mental fortitude to succeed at a high level in pro sports. I could give a crap less what the beef is between Butler, KAT, Wig, Thibs, etc. As a fan, and for those like Lip that are supporting this club through ticket purchases, these players OWE it to everyone else to be their best, regardless of circumstance. The fact that so many are almost apologetic for KAT playing so badly is maddening to me. He just got how many millions to play a kids game? And instead of busting his ass and proving Butler wrong, he has seemingly tucked in his turtle head down into his turtle shell and now he waits. If I was KAT, I would be embarrassed. A guy with his skill level should WANT to prove Butler wrong every day from now until a trade happens. And then when we play Butler on a new team, he should WANT to go out and embarrass Butler. But rather, I would guess KAT may get some minor injury and sit out instead. I just feel some of these guys have it, and some don't. Butler has it.....KAT don't......at least not right now.

[thedoper]

I think the problem with KAT is fairly simple. In my opinion he was told by management/ownership when he signed his deal that Butler would not be staying with the Wolves. And now he's pissed because he made the long term commitment but Thibs is showing no signs of moving Jimmy. I'm not necessarily taking KAT's side, but I think this is what you are seeing. You can decide for yourself whether KAT should be able to put his differences aside and ball to the best of his abilities. But realize he flat out hates Butler, and I can't blame him for that.

I think this is probably it. And why wouldn't he? The guy has been a total dick.

To me a shitty work environment negatively affects productivity. And the Wolves have a Super shitty work evironment right now. Something has got to give or else it's going to be KAT wanting out and then we are back to 14 years of darkness.