Q12543 wrote:Wiggins can go up and grab contested rebounds when he wants to. The key here is the "want to". He needs to want to do it more. That is the story of his career so far: Immense talent, not enough want to.
Moving him to SG makes the rebounding thing less relevant frankly. I think it's a bigger deal when he's a full-time SF.
Team rebounding is all that matters. If Ricky or Dunn or Towns grab all the boards it doesn't matter that Wiggins doesn't grab 2-4 more per game. We're 7th in rebounding differential in the league so Wiggins rebounding just really isn't a problem for the team.
This triggers all sorts of thoughts, so bear with me...
- The reason we have a high rebounding differential is because we are 4th in O-Reb %. Unfortunately we are 20th in D-Reb %. I would much rather have those numbers be reversed, as sending guys to the offensive glass often leads to easier transition points going the other way when unsuccessful in getting the rebound, whereas giving up offensive rebounds on defense leads to easy putbacks and kick out 3's.
- Knowing that we are in the bottom third in defensive rebounding, let's look at that aspect of Wiggins' game. Here are the players with a better D-reb % than Wiggins: Kris Dunn, Ricky Rubio, Shabazz Muhammad, Brandon Rush, Zach LaVine, and all of our bigs. Tyus Jones is barely behind Wiggins in this category. You don't think a little more effort on the defensive glass by Wig is warranted?
- But regardless if getting an extra couple boards per game makes a big difference or not I think is beside the point. I believe the bigger issue is that his soft rebounding is emblematic of his overall inconsistent motor, which we see borne out in other facets of the game: Steals, blocks, never takes a charge, hustling in transition....All the "little things" that add up. What makes it so frustrating is that he has such immense physical gifts to work with. He could be SO impactful, yet his impact is mostly limited to his ability to score, and even that can be up and down since he isn't very efficient on most nights.
Again getting the boards is all that matters, not who gets them. So if him getting 2-4 more boards per game isn't impactful it literally doesn't matter from the team perspective. That is the point. That's all that matters. If Wiggins could grab the board and push the ball up the court and put pressure on the defense I would be all on board asking him to do more. He can't do that so I would rather guys like Zach and Ricky and Dunn grab those boards so we can do something positive with them going the other way and Wiggins can continue to go after the really important boards when we need them because he is good at grabbing contested boards when the game is on the line. You seem to be expanding an issue with rebounding into a larger debate about how he impacts the game which I think doesn't have a place in a purely rebounding debate. If you don't think Wiggins getting 2-4 more boards per game matters then that's all that matters in the rebounding debate. Either it matters and he needs to do more or it doesn't and it'd just be nice if he did more. You seem to be in the camp that it doesn't matter yet he needs to do it or that's a knock on his impact on a game because he doesn't fill up an empty stat.
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins can go up and grab contested rebounds when he wants to. The key here is the "want to". He needs to want to do it more. That is the story of his career so far: Immense talent, not enough want to.
Moving him to SG makes the rebounding thing less relevant frankly. I think it's a bigger deal when he's a full-time SF.
Team rebounding is all that matters. If Ricky or Dunn or Towns grab all the boards it doesn't matter that Wiggins doesn't grab 2-4 more per game. We're 7th in rebounding differential in the league so Wiggins rebounding just really isn't a problem for the team.
This triggers all sorts of thoughts, so bear with me...
- The reason we have a high rebounding differential is because we are 4th in O-Reb %. Unfortunately we are 20th in D-Reb %. I would much rather have those numbers be reversed, as sending guys to the offensive glass often leads to easier transition points going the other way when unsuccessful in getting the rebound, whereas giving up offensive rebounds on defense leads to easy putbacks and kick out 3's.
- Knowing that we are in the bottom third in defensive rebounding, let's look at that aspect of Wiggins' game. Here are the players with a better D-reb % than Wiggins: Kris Dunn, Ricky Rubio, Shabazz Muhammad, Brandon Rush, Zach LaVine, and all of our bigs. Tyus Jones is barely behind Wiggins in this category. You don't think a little more effort on the defensive glass by Wig is warranted?
- But regardless if getting an extra couple boards per game makes a big difference or not I think is beside the point. I believe the bigger issue is that his soft rebounding is emblematic of his overall inconsistent motor, which we see borne out in other facets of the game: Steals, blocks, never takes a charge, hustling in transition....All the "little things" that add up. What makes it so frustrating is that he has such immense physical gifts to work with. He could be SO impactful, yet his impact is mostly limited to his ability to score, and even that can be up and down since he isn't very efficient on most nights.
Again getting the boards is all that matters, not who gets them. So if him getting 2-4 more boards per game isn't impactful it literally doesn't matter from the team perspective. That is the point. That's all that matters. If Wiggins could grab the board and push the ball up the court and put pressure on the defense I would be all on board asking him to do more. He can't do that so I would rather guys like Zach and Ricky and Dunn grab those boards so we can do something positive with them going the other way and Wiggins can continue to go after the really important boards when we need them because he is good at grabbing contested boards when the game is on the line. You seem to be expanding an issue with rebounding into a larger debate about how he impacts the game which I think doesn't have a place in a purely rebounding debate. If you don't think Wiggins getting 2-4 more boards per game matters then that's all that matters in the rebounding debate. Either it matters and he needs to do more or it doesn't and it'd just be nice if he did more. You seem to be in the camp that it doesn't matter yet he needs to do it or that's a knock on his impact on a game because he doesn't fill up an empty stat.
OK, sorry for veering off topic. I didn't know there were parliamentarian procedures to our debates on here!
Your point is you could care less about Wiggins' rebounding if the team is rebounding well. Well, the team isn't rebounding the ball well defensively. So why is he not part of the problem? You seem to suggest that he needs to conserve his energy and let the little guards do the rebounding for him. I can assure you most of "the greats" didn't take this approach. especially when the team is in the bottom third on the defensive glass.
Also, does this same rule of thumb apply to Ricky Rubio: If the team is scoring lots of points and he's rarely one of the main scorers, isn't that OK?
longstrangetrip wrote:I agree that the defense has been terrible recently, but what an entertaining half if you enjoy offensive basketball...kind of like an All Star game! Ricky with 20-6-3-2 and only 1 TO! Tyus with 3 assists in just 5 minutes and Dunn with 4 steals! What did Bazz do to get the early hook? I get a funny feeling he's in Thibs' dog house.
Bazz has gotten the bad end of playing a bunch of teams with combo guards. Thibs has used that as a reason to get other players on the floor. Dunn also has been pretty fantastic so he has squeezed out other guy's minutes.
Q12543 wrote:Rubio's jumper off the dribble still looks a little flat to me. He's just making them now. That's why I'm not completely convinced he has suddenly turned into this lights-out shooter. It still looks a little like a push-shot.
But as many of us have said all along, he doesn't need to be a lights-out shooter. He just needs to be a guy that can't be totally ignored. You certainly can't ignore him tonight!
The difference Q is that whatever he is doing it's confident and it's very fluid. Before it was like he was forcing it and sometimes in the past there was a hitch in his shot. He still has it forward in front of his face and yeah it's flat but so are his FTs and they go in. On the other hand Dunn shoots freaking Rainbows. Lol
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins can go up and grab contested rebounds when he wants to. The key here is the "want to". He needs to want to do it more. That is the story of his career so far: Immense talent, not enough want to.
Moving him to SG makes the rebounding thing less relevant frankly. I think it's a bigger deal when he's a full-time SF.
Team rebounding is all that matters. If Ricky or Dunn or Towns grab all the boards it doesn't matter that Wiggins doesn't grab 2-4 more per game. We're 7th in rebounding differential in the league so Wiggins rebounding just really isn't a problem for the team.
This triggers all sorts of thoughts, so bear with me...
- The reason we have a high rebounding differential is because we are 4th in O-Reb %. Unfortunately we are 20th in D-Reb %. I would much rather have those numbers be reversed, as sending guys to the offensive glass often leads to easier transition points going the other way when unsuccessful in getting the rebound, whereas giving up offensive rebounds on defense leads to easy putbacks and kick out 3's.
- Knowing that we are in the bottom third in defensive rebounding, let's look at that aspect of Wiggins' game. Here are the players with a better D-reb % than Wiggins: Kris Dunn, Ricky Rubio, Shabazz Muhammad, Brandon Rush, Zach LaVine, and all of our bigs. Tyus Jones is barely behind Wiggins in this category. You don't think a little more effort on the defensive glass by Wig is warranted?
- But regardless if getting an extra couple boards per game makes a big difference or not I think is beside the point. I believe the bigger issue is that his soft rebounding is emblematic of his overall inconsistent motor, which we see borne out in other facets of the game: Steals, blocks, never takes a charge, hustling in transition....All the "little things" that add up. What makes it so frustrating is that he has such immense physical gifts to work with. He could be SO impactful, yet his impact is mostly limited to his ability to score, and even that can be up and down since he isn't very efficient on most nights.
Again getting the boards is all that matters, not who gets them. So if him getting 2-4 more boards per game isn't impactful it literally doesn't matter from the team perspective. That is the point. That's all that matters. If Wiggins could grab the board and push the ball up the court and put pressure on the defense I would be all on board asking him to do more. He can't do that so I would rather guys like Zach and Ricky and Dunn grab those boards so we can do something positive with them going the other way and Wiggins can continue to go after the really important boards when we need them because he is good at grabbing contested boards when the game is on the line. You seem to be expanding an issue with rebounding into a larger debate about how he impacts the game which I think doesn't have a place in a purely rebounding debate. If you don't think Wiggins getting 2-4 more boards per game matters then that's all that matters in the rebounding debate. Either it matters and he needs to do more or it doesn't and it'd just be nice if he did more. You seem to be in the camp that it doesn't matter yet he needs to do it or that's a knock on his impact on a game because he doesn't fill up an empty stat.
OK, sorry for veering off topic. I didn't know there were parliamentarian procedures to our debates on here!
Your point is you could care less about Wiggins' rebounding if the team is rebounding well. Well, the team isn't rebounding the ball well defensively. So why is he not part of the problem? You seem to suggest that he needs to conserve his energy and let the little guards do the rebounding for him. I can assure you most of "the greats" didn't take this approach. especially when the team is in the bottom third on the defensive glass.
Also, does this same rule of thumb apply to Ricky Rubio: If the team is scoring lots of points and he's rarely one of the main scorers, isn't that OK?
Comparing the impact a primary ball handler scoring the ball can have to a SF rebounding the ball isn't even in the same ballpark. Every other aspect of scoring becomes easier and more efficient if your primary ball handler can score efficiently and pass the ball like Rubio can. That is a major impact on a team. Wiggins grabbing 2-4 boards per game is not that impactful. Detroit is the best defensive rebounding team in the league. How's that working out for them from an impact standpoint? GS has a worse defensive rebounding percentage than us. How are they so good defendibely with a lower rebounding percentage than us? Rebounding just isn't nearly as impactful as people make it out to be. You can be great and be a mediocre rebounding team or bad and a great rebounding team. It's not nearly the impact having a primary ball handler who can score efficiently with some volume can have on a team offense.
Q12543 wrote:Wiggins can go up and grab contested rebounds when he wants to. The key here is the "want to". He needs to want to do it more. That is the story of his career so far: Immense talent, not enough want to.
Moving him to SG makes the rebounding thing less relevant frankly. I think it's a bigger deal when he's a full-time SF.
Team rebounding is all that matters. If Ricky or Dunn or Towns grab all the boards it doesn't matter that Wiggins doesn't grab 2-4 more per game. We're 7th in rebounding differential in the league so Wiggins rebounding just really isn't a problem for the team.
This triggers all sorts of thoughts, so bear with me...
- The reason we have a high rebounding differential is because we are 4th in O-Reb %. Unfortunately we are 20th in D-Reb %. I would much rather have those numbers be reversed, as sending guys to the offensive glass often leads to easier transition points going the other way when unsuccessful in getting the rebound, whereas giving up offensive rebounds on defense leads to easy putbacks and kick out 3's.
- Knowing that we are in the bottom third in defensive rebounding, let's look at that aspect of Wiggins' game. Here are the players with a better D-reb % than Wiggins: Kris Dunn, Ricky Rubio, Shabazz Muhammad, Brandon Rush, Zach LaVine, and all of our bigs. Tyus Jones is barely behind Wiggins in this category. You don't think a little more effort on the defensive glass by Wig is warranted?
- But regardless if getting an extra couple boards per game makes a big difference or not I think is beside the point. I believe the bigger issue is that his soft rebounding is emblematic of his overall inconsistent motor, which we see borne out in other facets of the game: Steals, blocks, never takes a charge, hustling in transition....All the "little things" that add up. What makes it so frustrating is that he has such immense physical gifts to work with. He could be SO impactful, yet his impact is mostly limited to his ability to score, and even that can be up and down since he isn't very efficient on most nights.
Again getting the boards is all that matters, not who gets them. So if him getting 2-4 more boards per game isn't impactful it literally doesn't matter from the team perspective. That is the point. That's all that matters. If Wiggins could grab the board and push the ball up the court and put pressure on the defense I would be all on board asking him to do more. He can't do that so I would rather guys like Zach and Ricky and Dunn grab those boards so we can do something positive with them going the other way and Wiggins can continue to go after the really important boards when we need them because he is good at grabbing contested boards when the game is on the line. You seem to be expanding an issue with rebounding into a larger debate about how he impacts the game which I think doesn't have a place in a purely rebounding debate. If you don't think Wiggins getting 2-4 more boards per game matters then that's all that matters in the rebounding debate. Either it matters and he needs to do more or it doesn't and it'd just be nice if he did more. You seem to be in the camp that it doesn't matter yet he needs to do it or that's a knock on his impact on a game because he doesn't fill up an empty stat.
OK, sorry for veering off topic. I didn't know there were parliamentarian procedures to our debates on here!
Your point is you could care less about Wiggins' rebounding if the team is rebounding well. Well, the team isn't rebounding the ball well defensively. So why is he not part of the problem? You seem to suggest that he needs to conserve his energy and let the little guards do the rebounding for him. I can assure you most of "the greats" didn't take this approach. especially when the team is in the bottom third on the defensive glass.
Also, does this same rule of thumb apply to Ricky Rubio: If the team is scoring lots of points and he's rarely one of the main scorers, isn't that OK?
Comparing the impact a primary ball handler scoring the ball can have to a SF rebounding the ball isn't even in the same ballpark. Every other aspect of scoring becomes easier and more efficient if your primary ball handler can score efficiently and pass the ball like Rubio can. That is a major impact on a team. Wiggins grabbing 2-4 boards per game is not that impactful. Detroit is the best defensive rebounding team in the league. How's that working out for them from an impact standpoint? GS has a worse defensive rebounding percentage than us. How are they so good defendibely with a lower rebounding percentage than us? Rebounding just isn't nearly as impactful as people make it out to be. You can be great and be a mediocre rebounding team or bad and a great rebounding team. It's not nearly the impact having a primary ball handler who can score efficiently with some volume can have on a team offense.
Don't disagree with you on impact, but you didn't answer my question: If our team is a top 10 offense and Rubio isn't one of the main scorers, what does it matter, as long as we are scoring as a team?
As for Wiggins, I will say it again: It's not just the rebounding - that's just the easiest stat to point to with him and is emblematic of the larger issue. How many charges has he taken? How many chase down blocks has he made? How often is he on the floor going after a loose ball? How many steals does he get? How is his weak side help defense? It all adds up.
Mstermisty wrote:Watching this replay I have to say I'm warming up to a Rubio/Dunn backcourt. Dunn is starting to look more like an Avery Bradley type player, just playing tough and making a lot of hustle plays. Combine that with Rubio shooting better and something may be brewing here for the future.
Marcus Smart.
Avery Bradley is smoother and more skilled. He's developed into a very good shooter. But Marcus Smart is considered just as important. He's the king of the "do-shit" guards right now. He's going to surpass Rubio's early career start for woeful shooting (he's around 36% fg), but Celtics fans still love the guy.
He's tenacious. A bulldog defensively who'll guard 1 - 4s on the court. And he seems to follow up a wayward shot with two bad ass tough guy or pest plays. That's my hope for Dunn. Right now, he's a poor man's version of Smart. The similarities are striking. Ideally, I like that type of guy coming off the bench. And I think there's a definite spot for Dunn to develop into that here.
An arguement can be made that Dunn is already at Smart's level of production (some things are actually better) and even though they are about the same age Dunn is still a rookie. That 1 block per game per 36 mins for a combo guard is kinda sexy.
Yeah, Dunn has a place on this squad. It may not be the place everyone originally envisioned, but he has a place. He will be able to guard 1s, 2s, and some 3s. And he gets his fingernails dirty....love the way he digs in on the bigs and ties them up for jump balls or steals.
I think it was Jon K that was talking about the Towns going for rebounds thing. He says he thinks Towns likes to get those stats and he goes after rebounds regardless. He said he has heard teammates give him a hard time about rebounds and said he has seen a few times this season where he things guys have gone after a rebound just to get at him as a bit of a joke. He says that nobody seems to have a problem with him going after boards like he has at this point. I've heard guys communicating much more when they are going for rebounds the last few weeks though. It will be interesting to see how it plays out especially compared to That Kevin Love guy going for every rebound.
Mstermisty wrote:Watching this replay I have to say I'm warming up to a Rubio/Dunn backcourt. Dunn is starting to look more like an Avery Bradley type player, just playing tough and making a lot of hustle plays. Combine that with Rubio shooting better and something may be brewing here for the future.
Marcus Smart.
Avery Bradley is smoother and more skilled. He's developed into a very good shooter. But Marcus Smart is considered just as important. He's the king of the "do-shit" guards right now. He's going to surpass Rubio's early career start for woeful shooting (he's around 36% fg), but Celtics fans still love the guy.
He's tenacious. A bulldog defensively who'll guard 1 - 4s on the court. And he seems to follow up a wayward shot with two bad ass tough guy or pest plays. That's my hope for Dunn. Right now, he's a poor man's version of Smart. The similarities are striking. Ideally, I like that type of guy coming off the bench. And I think there's a definite spot for Dunn to develop into that here.
An arguement can be made that Dunn is already at Smart's level of production (some things are actually better) and even though they are about the same age Dunn is still a rookie. That 1 block per game per 36 mins for a combo guard is kinda sexy.
He's not as good as Smart right now.
Smart is a difference maker playing 30+ mpg for the #1 seed in the East.
Dunn is playing 17 minutes for a bottom feeder in the West.
Smart makes a ton of "winning" plays seemingly every game. Enough that a near-championship level team has him on the court guarding anybody from Chris Paul to LeBron James at the end of games. Dunn has shown flashes of that defensively, but he's not consistent yet to be more than just "a guy" out there on the court.
But it's enough to be hopeful about the role he can find in this league. Yes, the blocks per 36 minutes are a cool stat.
