Minnesota Sports Forum

Hey guys what are we talking about here?

BizarroJerry wrote:Hey guys what are we talking about here?

I'm pretty sure it's the heated debate over the age old question: ice cream or donuts?

BizarroJerry wrote:Hey guys what are we talking about here?

wiggins isnt the only reason for the loss, but hes the easiest guy to pick on. Basically the same stuff after every loss.

Lip I think calling Teague a scoring PG isn't quite the right nuance. I think you might agree with me hear me out.

First of all let's name the PGs or players that are really elite at passing and setting guys up.

Rubio
Ben Simmons
Lebron
Chris Paul
Harden
John Wall

Did I miss anyone?

Ok now there is another category that needs to be mentioned. Uber awesome game managers that can really help your teams in a bunch of ways.

Mike Conley
George Hill
Maybe Dragic?*
At a lower level you have guys like Ish Smith.

Billips and Conley are some of the gold standards here past and present

Then you have the scoring PGs and also stars including freaks like Westbrook.

To me Teague falls somewhere in between a scorer and a game manager that can help you run a team and also give you scoring. Yes yes I know "What Teague managing the game while dribbling all over!?!?!?" Yes I agree he hasn't been at his best there this season. Why?

Teague's value is as a guy that gets into the lane and plays pick and roll. The best offensive player on the team Towns is far from a pick and roll savant despite his ridiculous gifts as a shooter and scorer. The other pick and roll guy Teague works with is Taj who is only so much of a threat to score. Meanwhile the entire team is basically lacking in 3 point shooting. This creates 2 problems for Teague. First it means less spacing for him to st to the rim. 2bd if he kicks the ball out to a guy...will he make it? Dunno.

I'm certainly not absolving Teague of some of the faults we have seen this season. Honestly the worst night be when he seemingly can't even see Belly wide open at the 3 point line. However I do not think Teague is a selfish player. He just isn't a maestro passer just a solid one. Some of the struggles of the offense and other players are on him as the team's PG. it also feels like some of his strengths as a player have been suppressed by some of the other players weaknesses. His poor ability to make good post entry passes have been pretty glaring.

I think most people here would say it's lilely Teague isn't going anywhere this offseason. The debate could go on whether he should be here or is a good fit for the roster. Since he will likely be here here are some thoughts on why I think he should stay and why his fit could be maximized.

1. Towns regardless of who is his PG needs to improve a significant amount as a screener and pick and roll player. I'm not sure which is more mind boggling his defensive struggles or how he is lacking in this area of his game. He is too talented and so he can float/move to any spot and scorer there. I think that is part of the problem. If he makes some growth there it would really maximize Teague and anyone else that has the ball in their hands.

Improved shooting around him. Not sure in the starting lineup how that is accomplished other than Wiggins making a jump but realistically we probably need to hope for that regardless.

I don't know if you have seen what Teague has been saying in media sessions but he has basically been beating the drum in the playoffs specifically about all the stuff you and this board wants to do on offense. Take 3's play with pace and play free. A lot of coaches have problems letting guys just play. Flip had one of the biggest playbooks known to man and remember how he and Cassell took a while to figure it out? Teague might actually bring some interesting balance and Jon K says Teague is not super vocal all the time but he has no problem saying what he thinks which i like.

The bottom line is that overall Teague did about what Teague does every year be a solid averagish Starting PG in the NBA. Because of some injuries except for a couple brief stretches he never really got rolling. I think there is still some potential there for him and this roster to get on th same page and go to another level. I thought if Teague could find his groove quickly this team could really take off. It looked like before that knee sprain it might have started to happen. It might never happen and yeah a sweet shooting PG would be really nice with this roster. I don't know where we can find one of those.

Bonus material:

To me Tyus is a PG that likely isn't quite dynamic enough to just be a pass first virtuoso but you can see he has that passing ability. Instead he is likely going to be more of a game manager type but one that can really drop some dimes. To me what he needs to improve right now is become a real threat as a shooter. This season I think overall was a nice step in the right direction. I still think there is a decent chance a couple years from now he is the starting PG for this team and pretty successful. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Edit: *i think Dragic is one of those guys that is sorta like Teague only a better offensive player. He is good at a lot of things I'm not sure he fits any of these categories. He is sort of a jack of all trade master of none but mostly in a good way.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Wiggins has played better in the playoffs than the regular season, but the bar is fairly low. Here are his playoff numbers using a few well-respected metrics:

TS% - 54% (good for Wiggins, barely average in today's NBA, keeps missing too many FTs)
PER - 14.3 (about average)
WS/48 - .054 (below average)
Net Rating -13.3 (only Teague's is worse)

.....and this is from our "best" player in the playoffs. Not good enough.

How about Otto Porter?
TS% - 60%
PER - 18.1
WS/48 - .161
Net Rating -.1

Or Joe Ingles?
TS% - 62%
PER - 14.4
WS/48 - .141
Net Rating +22.2

Or OG Anunoby?
TS% - 80% (!)
PER - 18.9
WS/48 - .215
Net Rating +4.6

It's all small sample sizes, but I don't see anything particularly special in terms of what Wiggins has done. In fact, it's decidedly meh.

The 3rd quarter last game destroyed
net ratings this series for our starters. That would need weeks of basketball to correct. Wiggins has significantly more responsibilities on the court than Ingles and OG so they aren't proper comparisons. His two way play was a major reason we won game 3 and why game 1 was even a game at all. Sometimes you just have to watch the games to see the impact and not always look at the stat sheet when just a quarter can skew those stats for a series good or bad.

I think you're shorting Ingles a bit.

The guy is guarding Paul George in that series... and chipping in an efficient 14 ppg. For the regular season... he did a bit of everything...

12 / 4 / 4. And many advanced stats are kind to the guy, including positive OBPM, DBPM and a 3.3 VORP. Wiggins was negative in all of those categories... and that's part of the dichotomy between Ingles and Wiggins.

Wiggins LOOKS like a basketball player. He LOOKS like he's good. Ingles looks like us at the YMCA. Yesterday, there was a great moment in the game with OKC when George and Ingles were going at it... and George pressured Ingles hard... who crossed him over and made a nice dish for a dunk/layup. You could see the disdain written in Ingles' face going back downcourt... basically...

"What the fuck man... you think I can't dribble? That it's a fluke I've played big minutes in 170+ straight games for a playoff team...?"

PG-13 is averaging 27.3 PPG on 45/42/91. Guarding is a strong word.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

Can you offer up tangible evidence to support this take?

Are you watching the games? He has 3-4 possessions a game where he looks like Kawhi out there. He didn't do that before. The Gordon block in game 3. A couple possessions here and there where he's on Harden like glue and forcing him to take tough shots after multiple dribble moves and euro-steps/jumps. If you put some muscle on that frame he can legit be a nightmare defender with his length and size and it looks like that confidence and mentality is starting build up in him as this year went on culminating in some just flat out dominant defensive possessions in the post season. It's still just possessions and not games yet, but he's showing defensive prowess we haven't seen before.

Monster -- I actually agree with your take on Teague. When I referred to him as more of a scoring PG, I meant that shooting is his forte and first instinct. I agree he is by no means a scorer in the mold of a Westbrook. But I think your take is more precise -- a sold averagish starting PG who is somewhere between a scorer and game manager. Unfortunately, I think he often looks like a pretty poor game manager as evidenced by his overdribbling and the open teammates he either doesn't see or chooses not to give the ball to. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much of that is him and how much is our head coach. My bottom line is that he was a poor fit for this team. As you said, KAT isn't a good pick and roll player at this point in his career and neither is Wiggins, so a P&R point guard like Teague didn't make sense for this team knowing that it was built largely around KAT. Our lack of floor spacing and 3-point shooting are on Thibs -- as a coach and as a PBO who failed to upgrade our roster's 3-point shooting. Further, an averagish starting PG isn't worth a 3-year $57 million contract in my view.

By the way, I really like Teague. He's the first guy cheering for his teammates from the bench and he always gives a great effort. He's just a bad fit and a bad value in my view.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

I agree. He defended Harden better than Butler did last night. I've been as critical of Wiggins as anyone on this Board. So I'm clearly not a Wiggins apologist. Watching Wiggins play in this series and in the Denver game, I'd say he has definitely been playing some terrific defense. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Would I consider trading him this summer? Yes, but the return had better be dam good.

Honestly, I really don't want to give up on Wiggins without the chance to first see him play for a really good modern NBA head coach who can adapt his style to the talent on his roster. Floor spacing, lots of player movement off the ball with backcuts and quick passing would help get the most out of Wiggins. We'll never see that from this team under Thibodeau. Top head coaches adapt to their players, not the other way around. Snyder found a way to get the most out of Ricky Rubio in spite of his shooting issues. And Ricky's shooting improved as well this season.

I know there are many on this Board who continue to defend Thibodeau and that's fine. But the same team coached by Sam Mitchell didn't improve at all under Thibodeau even though they had a full season and offseason to improve before Thibodeau took over. Yes, the team's record improved substantially this season, which seems directly related to adding Butler, Taj and even Jamaal. But then I see what Snyder got out of that Jazz roster, what Pop got out of the Spurs roster and what Stevens got out of the Celtics roster. Then I look at a Wolves team that made fewer threes than any other team in the League, that took more contested twos than any other team in the League and that was one of the worst teams in the League defending the three. Sum it all up and it's painfully obvious that we don't have an elite head coach -- at least not for this team in this era of the NBA. I want an elite head coach before we start giving up on talented young players like Wiggins.

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

I agree. He defended Harden better than Butler did last night. I've been as critical of Wiggins as anyone on this Board. So I'm clearly not a Wiggins apologist. Watching Wiggins play in this series and in the Denver game, I'd say he has definitely been playing some terrific defense. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Would I consider trading him this summer? Yes, but the return had better be dam good.

Honestly, I really don't want to give up on Wiggins without the chance to first see him play for a really good modern NBA head coach who can adapt his style to the talent on his roster. Floor spacing, lots of player movement off the ball with backcuts and quick passing would help get the most out of Wiggins. We'll never see that from this team under Thibodeau. Top head coaches adapt to their players, not the other way around. Snyder found a way to get the most out of Ricky Rubio in spite of his shooting issues. And Ricky's shooting improved as well this season.

I know there are many on this Board who continue to defend Thibodeau and that's fine. But the same team coached by Sam Mitchell didn't improve at all under Thibodeau even though they had a full season and offseason to improve before Thibodeau took over. Yes, the team's record improved substantially this season, which seems directly related to adding Butler, Taj and even Jamaal. But then I see what Snyder got out of that Jazz roster, what Pop got out of the Spurs roster and what Stevens got out of the Celtics roster. Then I look at a Wolves team that made fewer threes than any other team in the League, that took more contested twos than any other team in the League and that was one of the worst teams in the League defending the three. Sum it all up and it's painfully obvious that we don't have an elite head coach -- at least not for this team in this era of the NBA. I want an elite head coach before we start giving up on talented young players like Wiggins.

I defend Thibs because I think good franchises need stability. All the elite coaches you list have taken time to build the culture of their franchises. I agree with the premise that a lot of what Thibs does on the floor can be unimpressive. But the results in changing the effort that this team gives is noticeable. For now the team has progressed because the situation Thibs has made on and off the court. I have expectations for improvement beyond this year, but recognize relationships, systems of play, and culture take time. Trying to install something completely new when there has been legitimate progress seems too hasty for the culture of a team that is maturing. If we plateau I'd be more on the side of switching up the coaching, similar to what Golden State eventually did when they got rid of Jackson.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster -- I actually agree with your take on Teague. When I referred to him as more of a scoring PG, I meant that shooting is his forte and first instinct. I agree he is by no means a scorer in the mold of a Westbrook. But I think your take is more precise -- a sold averagish starting PG who is somewhere between a scorer and game manager. Unfortunately, I think he often looks like a pretty poor game manager as evidenced by his overdribbling and the open teammates he either doesn't see or chooses not to give the ball to. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much of that is him and how much is our head coach. My bottom line is that he was a poor fit for this team. As you said, KAT isn't a good pick and roll player at this point in his career and neither is Wiggins, so a P&R point guard like Teague didn't make sense for this team knowing that it was built largely around KAT. Our lack of floor spacing and 3-point shooting are on Thibs -- as a coach and as a PBO who failed to upgrade our roster's 3-point shooting. Further, an averagish starting PG isn't worth a 3-year $57 million contract in my view.

By the way, I really like Teague. He's the first guy cheering for his teammates from the bench and he always gives a great effort. He's just a bad fit and a bad value in my view.

Good thought Lip I think we agree mostly on how we view Teague. I think instead of saying Teague's first instinct is to score I think it's more that his first instinct is to attack a defense getting into the paint. I haven't looked at the numbers this year but previously he passed quite a bit on drives.

I see why you think he is a poor fit but hopefully you see my angle about why he could end up being a good player going forward (at least in the short term of his contract) as well. I'm glad that you have seen him be a positive team guy in person. I think we need to give this group and Thibs a bit more time before we say it won't work. Should we expect this team to have come together this year like the Other teams have in the past? Usually it takes time and we didn't add Lebron or in his prime KG and or another HOFer like Wade/Ray Allen.

I was just thinking "If only we could sucker the Heat into a swap of Teague for Dragic" then I went and looked up his stats and...they weren't as good as I expected. I mean I still think he is a little better player overall and would be a bit better for but I was kinda shocked he only took 4 3's a game for the Heat who emphasize that shot. As for Teague's contract I think it was a market value contract which generally means you paid a bit more than the value of the player because even in the tighter times last year and coming up legit starting players signing early in FA are gonna get paid a solid amount. If Teague got paid a million or 2 less a year it would look better but I'm not sure it would have a game changing impact overall on the total salary cap picture the next 2 years. We can (meaning Glen) can use all the wiggle room they can get but yeah. Glen has put plenty of money towards this franchise the last few years I think he is gonna have to pay some luxury tax for a couple years. If thisbteam does well I think he and his partners will see plenty of financial benefits from doing so.