Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Tyus deserves a shot at being our starting PG. It may not be a good long term solution but you never know. He definitely deserves the chance.

I think we discussed this before... but so many NBA guys are set with their rotations. And that's both good and bad.

Players tend to perform better when they know what's expected. Consistency from the coach leads to consistency from the players... and all that.

That being said, when should coaches step out from beyond those strict rotations? Is one performance from Tyus Jones enough? I think a lot of us have seen how poorly Dunn has played and how mediocre Rubio has been... and Jones is the resident "backup qb" in this scenario.

I like Jones. I want him to succeed. I just don't know what good it's gonna do in the end. This team just has to get more from Rubio and the guy it just drafted.

Don't sell Tyus short. He has a way of orchestrating things on the floor, and he's our only option with a jump shot. I'd like to see him get an extended audition to see what it looks like. I even think his smarts and hands on defense could be an underrated asset. He's also just 20 years old.

I get it. And as noted, I like him. (Provincial rube alert!)

I remember watching him even in college vs. Wisconsin early in the year and raving that I'd never seen a PG that young be that composed. I just don't think he's a playoff caliber PG.

And that's the ultimate goal for this team. The problem is I don't know if there is a playoff caliber PG on the roster right now.

Championship caliber PG? Maybe not. But Rubio is clearly a playoff caliber PG as one of five players surrounded by scorers.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Tyus deserves a shot at being our starting PG. It may not be a good long term solution but you never know. He definitely deserves the chance.

I think we discussed this before... but so many NBA guys are set with their rotations. And that's both good and bad.

Players tend to perform better when they know what's expected. Consistency from the coach leads to consistency from the players... and all that.

That being said, when should coaches step out from beyond those strict rotations? Is one performance from Tyus Jones enough? I think a lot of us have seen how poorly Dunn has played and how mediocre Rubio has been... and Jones is the resident "backup qb" in this scenario.

I like Jones. I want him to succeed. I just don't know what good it's gonna do in the end. This team just has to get more from Rubio and the guy it just drafted.

Don't sell Tyus short. He has a way of orchestrating things on the floor, and he's our only option with a jump shot. I'd like to see him get an extended audition to see what it looks like. I even think his smarts and hands on defense could be an underrated asset. He's also just 20 years old.

I get it. And as noted, I like him. (Provincial rube alert!)

I remember watching him even in college vs. Wisconsin early in the year and raving that I'd never seen a PG that young be that composed. I just don't think he's a playoff caliber PG.

And that's the ultimate goal for this team. The problem is I don't know if there is a playoff caliber PG on the roster right now.

Championship caliber PG? Maybe not. But Rubio is clearly a playoff caliber PG as one of five players surrounded by scorers.

Sure. Brevin Knight was a playoff PG, too. Heck, even Kevin Ollie might have been a playoff caliber PG if he had the exact perfect mix around him.

I'm talking about a Point Guard who can fit in almost anywhere... not one who you have to cater to in order to hide his flaws.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Tyus deserves a shot at being our starting PG. It may not be a good long term solution but you never know. He definitely deserves the chance.

I think we discussed this before... but so many NBA guys are set with their rotations. And that's both good and bad.

Players tend to perform better when they know what's expected. Consistency from the coach leads to consistency from the players... and all that.

That being said, when should coaches step out from beyond those strict rotations? Is one performance from Tyus Jones enough? I think a lot of us have seen how poorly Dunn has played and how mediocre Rubio has been... and Jones is the resident "backup qb" in this scenario.

I like Jones. I want him to succeed. I just don't know what good it's gonna do in the end. This team just has to get more from Rubio and the guy it just drafted.

Don't sell Tyus short. He has a way of orchestrating things on the floor, and he's our only option with a jump shot. I'd like to see him get an extended audition to see what it looks like. I even think his smarts and hands on defense could be an underrated asset. He's also just 20 years old.

I get it. And as noted, I like him. (Provincial rube alert!)

I remember watching him even in college vs. Wisconsin early in the year and raving that I'd never seen a PG that young be that composed. I just don't think he's a playoff caliber PG.

And that's the ultimate goal for this team. The problem is I don't know if there is a playoff caliber PG on the roster right now.

Championship caliber PG? Maybe not. But Rubio is clearly a playoff caliber PG as one of five players surrounded by scorers.

Sure. Brevin Knight was a playoff PG, too. Heck, even Kevin Ollie might have been a playoff caliber PG if he had the exact perfect mix around him.

I'm talking about a Point Guard who can fit in almost anywhere... not one who you have to cater to in order to hide his flaws.

Also, Ricky is not clearly a playoff PG because he's never made the playoffs. You have to actually make the playoffs to be a playoff PG.

Update after last night:

As a reminder, here is how last year's starting 5 that we ended the year with did as a unit:
Offensive Rating - 113.5
Defensive Rating - 109.6
Net Rating - +3.9

Here are the updated numbers for this year:
Offensive Rating - 102
Defensive Rating - 112.4
Net Rating - -10.4

This group has been gradually getting worse defensively throughout the season. That's right, they are going backwards! Offensively, they have held pretty steady this year, but markedly worse from last year.

At what point does Thibs shake some things up? It's one thing if we were struggling, but seeing improvement. But these 2nd half massive collapses in both offense and defense just continue to pile up.

A few other "lineup" stats. In each case, I am picking some arbitrary minimum threshold of minutes played together:

Best 5-man lineup
Aldrich/Bjelica/Dunn/LaVine/Muhammad
Offensive Rating - 116.9
Defensive Rating - 100.7
Net Rating - +16.2

Best 4-man lineup
Bjelica/Dunn/LaVine/Muhammad
Offensive Rating - 107.6
Defensive Rating - 91.2
Net Rating - +16.4

Top 3 3-man lineups with Net Rating
Aldrich/Bjelica/Dunn - +16.0
Aldrich/Bjelica/Muhammad - +13.8
Bjelica/LaVine/Muhammad - +10.9

Top 3 2-man lineups with Net Rating
Aldrich/Bjelica - +16.4
Aldrich/Muhammad - +9.2
Bjelica/Dunn - +8.0

Update Net Rating by Player:

Jones - +6.6
Bjelica - +5.3
Aldrich - +5.2
Muhammad - +3.9
Dunn - +.8
Dieng - -3.8
Wiggins - -3.9
LaVine - -4.4
KAT - -5.1
Rubio - -8.9

Simplistic conclusion: Rubio is killing us on offense and our "big three" are killing us on defense.

Q, I'm getting sick and tired of your continued Thibs bashing. You throw out these stats, but refuse to recognize that while the starters were 14.6 points worse under Thibs than they were under Sam a week ago, now they're only 14.3 point worse...that's IMPROVEMENT, and clear evidence that our starters are finally getting it and adapting to Thibs' "system". I still maintain that Thibs has the worst luck of any coach in the league...he just happened to show up at the exact time that every starter began to play worse than last year. He deserves our sympathy, not our scorn.

Seriously, with over a quarter of the season completed, it has to be getting nearly impossible for even the blindest Thibs advocates to ignore the shocking turnaround. But since we're stuck with him for three years, I'm going to look for some positives:

1) I watched the entire game last night, and despite the 4th quarter "tired legs" collapse (get used to it, boys...it's here to stay), I thought we played quite well...very entertaining game against a good team. The starters played looser than I have seen them play and didn't seem to be looking over their shoulders the whole game. Of course I attribute that to Thibs not having his voice for most of the game...please God, make that laryngitis permanent!

2) The reserves continue to play very well, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Q's stats show how well the reserves are performing compared to the starters, and especially Cole and Kris. While Coach Thibs has been a colossal flop, PBO Thibs has to be given some credit for bringing in these 2 guys who have anchored our second unit...all kidding aside, it bodes well for Thibs' future GM moves. I still think he needs to trust and play his reserves more though...not only because they are playing well, but also because it will keep our starters fresher for the end of the game (or at least fresher if they haven't had a 2-hour full-court practice the day before).

Q12543 wrote:Update Net Rating by Player:

Jones - +6.6
Bjelica - +5.3
Aldrich - +5.2
Muhammad - +3.9
Dunn - +.8
Dieng - -3.8
Wiggins - -3.9
LaVine - -4.4
KAT - -5.1
Rubio - -8.9

Simplistic conclusion: Rubio is killing us on offense and our "big three" are killing us on defense.

Hmm...tell me more about this Jones fellow. Sounds like he might be pretty good...maybe he can help us once he gets off the DL.

Seriously, does Thibs have access to this data, or is it a secret? Most impressive about Jones' plus/minus is that it hasn't come at garbage time. Circumstances have dictated that Thibs has turned to Tyus mostly in critical situations...often the second half of close games, where we have generally collapsed this season. For God's sake, play the kid a little more, Thibs...and trust your reserves. They know how to play defense, and it's reflected in their terrific numbers.

I'm not quite sure how anyone that actually watched the game last night, or much of the season, can attribute that loss to Thibs. We look good when the players execute the gameplan -- Thib's gameplan -- but absolutely kill themselves when they start doing their own thing, such as panic mode three-pointers and one-pass offense followed by lackadaisical defensive awareness. I especially thought Towns was hard to watch against Toronto. Said it in a different thread, or maybe this one, that he seems to be caring more about the "look at me" plays instead of the essential plays that win games. He's been super frustrating along with Wiggins and Rubio this year.

Camden wrote:I'm not quite sure how anyone that actually watched the game last night, or much of the season, can attribute that loss to Thibs. We look good when the players execute the gameplan -- Thib's gameplan -- but absolutely kill themselves when they start doing their own thing, such as panic mode three-pointers and one-pass offense followed by lackadaisical defensive awareness. I especially thought Towns was hard to watch against Toronto. Said it in a different thread, or maybe this one, that he seems to be caring more about the "look at me" plays instead of the essential plays that win games. He's been super frustrating along with Wiggins and Rubio this year.

Cam, I think it's always guesswork in how to assign blame in a situation involving so many variables and interdependencies. But at the end of the day, when you have the exact same 5-player unit taking a 15 point swing in net rating from one season to the next, you have to look at the coach, right? We all know these guys worked their asses off over the summer and everyone is healthy too. So what the hell gives?