Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.

I guess the difference is that some of us, Q and myself particularly, don't see Rubio or the starting PG position as a "hole" that needs to be plugged. He's a top-15 point guard at worst in the NBA. You and Cool believe that we have no chance to win in the playoffs with Rubio as our floor general, and you have a right to that opinion. After all, it is just an opinion because we're not even there yet. It gets slightly annoying, however, when the two of you and Pork talk about this inability to win playoff games with him as a fact when in reality it isn't.

That's fair. You're right. Nobody knows for certain.

The Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs with Rubio as PG... whether that's all his fault or none of his fault... it's the one fact we have.

No. We have other facts. For example, the Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs in the 10 years since KG was traded to the Celtics. The Wolves never came close to making the playoffs until after KG, Googs and Marbury were all part of the Wolves roster. The Wolves missed the playoffs in KG's last season before being traded to Boston. The Wolves have never come close to the playoffs except when Bill Clinton or George W Bush was president. :)

Referring to Rubio as the common denominator in the Wolves failure to make the playoffs as if there's some significant connection is one of the silliest things I've ever read on this or any other message board. The inference might not be so silly if someone had referred to Rubio as a franchise player. But no one has or could credibly make that claim.

Ricky is a good player and the stats show he's a net positive to the team. But that's all he is and all anyone on the Board claims him to be. But note also that even an eventual hall-of-fame player - KG - could not get the Wolves to the playoffs alone.

The future fortune if this team will depend on those players who have the potential to be great - Towns, Wiggins, LaVine. Ricky can help but it's mainly about the three 20 year olds. And it will obviously take more that one great player as the Pelican fans are learning this season.

"whether that's all his fault or none of his fault"

Nobody knows for certain how much, if any, blame Rubio deserves. But we do know for a fact that the Wolves have been shitty. Since we seem to agree... why are you quoting me in an argumentative way?

You keep making the exact same inference over and over (and over and over). Why do you keep applying the team record to one player i.e. "The Wolves haven't won with Rubio?". It's such a low brow (Rube like) argument. The Wolves didn't win with KG for several years. They didn't win with Al Jefferson for several years. They didn't win with Kevin Love for several years. And they are not winning with KAT this year. What does that mean other than those were all good players on bad teams? It's 2016. Even the casual fan is aware of generally accepted Advanced statistics like PER, Win Shares, VOPR and RPM. Such stats will certainly give you a better picture of an individual players performance than the team record. Steph Curry was on losing teams his first three years in the league. Should we think less of him?

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.

I guess the difference is that some of us, Q and myself particularly, don't see Rubio or the starting PG position as a "hole" that needs to be plugged. He's a top-15 point guard at worst in the NBA. You and Cool believe that we have no chance to win in the playoffs with Rubio as our floor general, and you have a right to that opinion. After all, it is just an opinion because we're not even there yet. It gets slightly annoying, however, when the two of you and Pork talk about this inability to win playoff games with him as a fact when in reality it isn't.

That's fair. You're right. Nobody knows for certain.

The Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs with Rubio as PG... whether that's all his fault or none of his fault... it's the one fact we have.

No. We have other facts. For example, the Wolves have never come close to making the playoffs in the 10 years since KG was traded to the Celtics. The Wolves never came close to making the playoffs until after KG, Googs and Marbury were all part of the Wolves roster. The Wolves missed the playoffs in KG's last season before being traded to Boston. The Wolves have never come close to the playoffs except when Bill Clinton or George W Bush was president. :)

Referring to Rubio as the common denominator in the Wolves failure to make the playoffs as if there's some significant connection is one of the silliest things I've ever read on this or any other message board. The inference might not be so silly if someone had referred to Rubio as a franchise player. But no one has or could credibly make that claim.

Ricky is a good player and the stats show he's a net positive to the team. But that's all he is and all anyone on the Board claims him to be. But note also that even an eventual hall-of-fame player - KG - could not get the Wolves to the playoffs alone.

The future fortune if this team will depend on those players who have the potential to be great - Towns, Wiggins, LaVine. Ricky can help but it's mainly about the three 20 year olds. And it will obviously take more that one great player as the Pelican fans are learning this season.

"whether that's all his fault or none of his fault"

Nobody knows for certain how much, if any, blame Rubio deserves. But we do know for a fact that the Wolves have been shitty. Since we seem to agree... why are you quoting me in an argumentative way?

You keep making the exact same inference over and over (and over and over). Why do you keep applying the team record to one player i.e. "The Wolves haven't won with Rubio?". It's such a low brow (Rube like) argument. The Wolves didn't win with KG for several years. They didn't win with Al Jefferson for several years. They didn't win with Kevin Love for several years. And they are not winning with KAT this year. What does that mean other than those were all good players on bad teams? It's 2016. Even the casual fan is aware of generally accepted Advanced statistics like PER, Win Shares, VOPR and RPM. Such stats will certainly give you a better picture of an individual players performance than the team record. Steph Curry was on losing teams his first three years in the league. Should we think less of him?

You missed the point of my post entirely.

You've done that a lot recently. Don't know why. Don't know if it's intentional. Don't know if it's because I'm writing poorly...

Camden was referring to the lack of facts about Rubio being a liability in the playoffs. He's absolutely right. (which I wrote) It's all conjecture, opinions and assumptions. The fact is that the Wolves haven't been close to the playoffs at all, so nobody knows one way or the other. I was ripping the organization much more than Rubio. I said repeatedly now that there's no real way of knowing if Rubio deserves all the blame for that... none of the blame... or as I firmly believe (and have tried hard to make abundantly clear)... somewhere in the middle. He's obviously not THE problem. He's obviously been one of the best players here during his tenure.

Is that clear enough? I refuse to verbally fellate Ricky Rubio in every post. But goddamn... sometimes, posters get ripped for anything short of that in threads. I understand some of the pushback/frustration for the few who do rip Rubio incessantly. But take it out on them, not on people somewhere in the middle. For the 753rd time, I like Ricky Rubio. I don't want him to be traded right now. I can understand if he is, however, if his polarizing style doesn't fit into what the next coach/GM is looking for... or if they want to try a different approach.

This is fast becoming "Wiggins is a disappointment, circa 2016." Most of the posters ripped in that thread (I can remember Q and I specifically) were ripped even though we had about 5 complimentary things about Wiggins compared to every negative note (and those were based on actual stats!).

Thank you, Carlos! I had given up.

Abe, I agree that you have a balanced and nuanced view of Rubio, similar to the infamous "Wiggins is a disappointment" thread.

I think what's frustrating is your constant insertion of the team record with Rubio as evidence against him when all other measures of individual contribution (and more importantly, team contribution when he's on the floor) point to the exact opposite affect. We have also pointed out other players who are even BETTER individual contributors than Rubio - Anthony Davis and Demarcus Cousins to name two - that also don't have winning NBA records. Yet no one would in their right mind would say that neither are capable of being on a winning team.

"I refuse to verbally fellate Ricky in every post." Abe, you sure have a way with words. :). Could you agree to do it in some posts?

Q12543 wrote:Abe, I agree that you have a balanced and nuanced view of Rubio, similar to the infamous "Wiggins is a disappointment" thread.

I think what's frustrating is your constant insertion of the team record with Rubio as evidence against him when all other measures of individual contribution (and more importantly, team contribution when he's on the floor) point to the exact opposite affect. We have also pointed out other players who are even BETTER individual contributors than Rubio - Anthony Davis and Demarcus Cousins to name two - that also don't have winning NBA records. Yet no one would in their right mind would say that neither are capable of being on a winning team.

I guess there's a middle-ground in there somewhere. Much like I ripped those ripping me for the posts of others... I'm probably guilty of that to a degree too. For example, seeing posts like "Rubio is a winner." At times, it seems as though Rubio is absolved of all guilt when looking at past results. But there's a flip side to it that spurs those kinds of responses from posters who really dislike Rubio. So I get it to a degree...

As we discussed, where you and I seem to disagree the most is the 2014 season. After all, it's the only season where the Wolves trotted out what can be viewed as a solid or good team. But we've been there. You know my take... I know yours. Maybe that season (small sample size) is simply the anomaly.

It is really quite amazing how this organization has developed some truly ridiculous anomalies when it comes to players/stats/value.

1. Garnett. For more than a decade, he was inarguably one of the game's very best players. But the team still won less than all of his contemporaries.
2. Love. No player in the history of the Wins Shares stat ended in the top 10 without winning at least 39 games. Love was #4 until the final week of the season on a team that lost 65 games. Then, he came in 4th on a team that went 26 - 40. Then 3rd on a team that went 40 - 42. No other player in the top 20 was on a team with a losing record. That's absurd.
3. Rubio's advanced stats, including his numbers when on/off the court.

So, just how terrible has the organization been to support those guys? Or, are they simply flukes and not as good as we thought? Heck, Rubio and Love played together after all. Honestly, I don't know. But the organization has not done any of them many favors...

The one thing I do know... is that the Wolves have surpassed the Clippers for worst franchise in modern NBA history. Kudos for this board though for being as active and passionate as it is despite that. At least, the future looks legitimately promising for the first time in a long time.

Abe, I think the inability to surround its stars with the right talent is the hallmark of a poorly run organization. Every NBA team will stumble into a KG, Kevin Love, or Karl-Anthony Towns at some point. It's just bound to happen with the lottery system that's in place.

The REAL work involves all the other stuff - culture, coaching, unearthing good values, talent development, cap management, keeping guys healthy, valuing each and every pick, etc. etc. Of the franchises that exist today, no one has a worse track record than the Wolves in the areas that lead to systemic success.

We have to have the worst defending wings in the NBA by a big margin. Bazz, LaVine and KMart are atrocious defenders. Wiggins, while not atrocious is still a below average defender. Wiggins and probably LaVine have the athleticism and lateral quickness to be plus defenders. Now we just need Thibs or someone who can actually teach and motivate them to defend to their abilities.

WIGGINS IS NOT A BELOW AVERAGE DEFENDER

CoolBreeze44 wrote:WIGGINS IS NOT A BELOW AVERAGE DEFENDER

That one might be deserving of its own thread. I think everybody here believes he has the skills to be a very good defender. And he's shown that ability at times. He's also been beaten at times and some metrics indicate he has a lot of work to do to improve. He's young and the team relies on him quite a bit offensively, so those lapses are to be expected at this point, I guess.