Play me a tune Jazz @ Wolves GDT

[rapsuperstar31]

We're pretty much aligned on this FNG. If Luka can be traded then so can Ant. The only difference is we would get a hell of a lot more than Dallas did. I DO believe that was a league trade however, and Flagg was gift wrapped to Dallas at the time. Ant has as much talent or more than anyone in the league, but that alone doesn't make you the best player. It takes a much bigger level of leadership than Ant provides. I know some will say, well he's always praising his teammates and talking about team first. I say don't listen to a man's words, watch his actions.

The big gamble is trying to determine the career path of this phenomenal talent. If you can somehow figure that out, it would tell you exactly whether to move him or not. I agree with you he will be a Timberwolf until he decides otherwise. And I know many if not most fans would take that even if it never means a championship. But it's definitely okay to want more and I'm one of the fans that does. His value is at it's absolute zenith right now, and if you're TC and think he will ascend further, you better be right.

Can’t argue with any of your points, Cool. But in my view, when you have a talent like Ant, your job as President of Basketball Operations is to build a championship contender around him. I’ll add that it never made sense to assume that Ant would develop into another MJ, Kobe or Larry. My view has always been that it made sense to hope Ant would take that next step that so few take but that we should have always been focused on adding similar vintage talent from which someone might emerge as that top dog - 1a or at least a highly competitive 1b next to Ant. My criticism of the Rudy deal has never centered on Rudy; it has always been tied to the opportunity costs of the deal - i.e., what we could have potentially done with all the assets we gave up. Imagine if we still had all the picks we gave up, not to mention the other assets we could have acquired for the players we gave up, along with the additional payroll flexibility. All of that would have put us in position to acquire Giannis at the deadline or maybe earlier. Other than Giannis, who knows who else we could have acquired who could have been a 1a or 1b to Ant. Rudy has been great defensively, but I thought it was the wrong call to go after a 30+ year old complementary piece (a very good one) rather than looking to acquire younger players who with the potential to be much more.

This post isn’t intended as an expression of sour grapes regret or “see I told you so. I’ve enjoyed the ride with Rudy who has been terrific. I just don’t think you trade that much for a guy like Rudy to complement a 19-year old emerging star because it’s way too early at that point to know whether that 19 year old can be what you need your top elite player to be. I’m still not sure even though I admit you might be right that Ant has hit his developmental ceiling. So here we are - at a point when it’s reasonable to suggest the possibility of trading Ant. We might have been here anyway without the Rudy trade, but once we made that deal we never had a chance to get another potential star to pair with Ant. Moreover, it would be very difficult to make up for what we’d be losing with Ant’s departure if we trade him and we’d be entering that highly uncertain world of rebuild.

My alternative to your more bold suggestion of trading Ant is to trade Randle and bring in a new head coach who might be able to get something extra out of Ant and some of the other guys who also fail to bring consistent defensive and all-around effort to the court. Randle is the worst offender in that area. Honestly, the only players who have proven to bring consistent elite two-way effort on this team this season are Donte, Bones, Naz, Ayo so far, and maybe Rudy. Donte’s shooting has been frustratingly inconsistent. Naz and Bones have more off-nights shooting than I’d like to see, but those two along with Donte and Ayo give consistent effort. I wouldn’t consider trading Ant without at least going one season with a new head coach and a roster without Randle.

The one argument is that Ant raises his play several notches in the playoffs. He's the one guy you can really count on and has proven it throughout his playoff career. However he did fall a bit flat or out of steam in both WCF series. Not looking up numbers but I feel like they dipped some, sure competition was higher so expected a bit.

That said Ju, DDV, even Rudy haven't brought their A games in the big series (WCF). While Ant raises his level some others have fallen off. I suppose it's somewhat expected that the non superstars don't shine, but it does make the point to making a Giannis or Kyrie type of move. Kyrie is one guy who also raises his level and proven champion and could give us a more consistent punch against the OKC's or SA's.

I still think that Rudy will bring back a solid player or players if we trade him. He's still a beast and a walking top 10 defense. Even when you have guys not playing up to snuff on that end (many Wolves players this regular season).

Kyrie is a name I keep going back to when I think of trades. I'd hate to go get older, but Randle for Kyrie does work I believe if we are under the 1st apron in the summer. Randle obviously going to a third team. Kyrie made up for a lot of Luka's mistakes in their finals run. I'd rather get Fox if San Antonio ever decides to focus on their young star point guards, but you can't argue Kyrie would be helpful for at least a few seasons if healthy.

[Lipoli390]

We're pretty much aligned on this FNG. If Luka can be traded then so can Ant. The only difference is we would get a hell of a lot more than Dallas did. I DO believe that was a league trade however, and Flagg was gift wrapped to Dallas at the time. Ant has as much talent or more than anyone in the league, but that alone doesn't make you the best player. It takes a much bigger level of leadership than Ant provides. I know some will say, well he's always praising his teammates and talking about team first. I say don't listen to a man's words, watch his actions.

The big gamble is trying to determine the career path of this phenomenal talent. If you can somehow figure that out, it would tell you exactly whether to move him or not. I agree with you he will be a Timberwolf until he decides otherwise. And I know many if not most fans would take that even if it never means a championship. But it's definitely okay to want more and I'm one of the fans that does. His value is at it's absolute zenith right now, and if you're TC and think he will ascend further, you better be right.

Can’t argue with any of your points, Cool. But in my view, when you have a talent like Ant, your job as President of Basketball Operations is to build a championship contender around him. I’ll add that it never made sense to assume that Ant would develop into another MJ, Kobe or Larry. My view has always been that it made sense to hope Ant would take that next step that so few take but that we should have always been focused on adding similar vintage talent from which someone might emerge as that top dog - 1a or at least a highly competitive 1b next to Ant. My criticism of the Rudy deal has never centered on Rudy; it has always been tied to the opportunity costs of the deal - i.e., what we could have potentially done with all the assets we gave up. Imagine if we still had all the picks we gave up, not to mention the other assets we could have acquired for the players we gave up, along with the additional payroll flexibility. All of that would have put us in position to acquire Giannis at the deadline or maybe earlier. Other than Giannis, who knows who else we could have acquired who could have been a 1a or 1b to Ant. Rudy has been great defensively, but I thought it was the wrong call to go after a 30+ year old complementary piece (a very good one) rather than looking to acquire younger players who with the potential to be much more.

This post isn’t intended as an expression of sour grapes regret or “see I told you so. I’ve enjoyed the ride with Rudy who has been terrific. I just don’t think you trade that much for a guy like Rudy to complement a 19-year old emerging star because it’s way too early at that point to know whether that 19 year old can be what you need your top elite player to be. I’m still not sure even though I admit you might be right that Ant has hit his developmental ceiling. So here we are - at a point when it’s reasonable to suggest the possibility of trading Ant. We might have been here anyway without the Rudy trade, but once we made that deal we never had a chance to get another potential star to pair with Ant. Moreover, it would be very difficult to make up for what we’d be losing with Ant’s departure if we trade him and we’d be entering that highly uncertain world of rebuild.

My alternative to your more bold suggestion of trading Ant is to trade Randle and bring in a new head coach who might be able to get something extra out of Ant and some of the other guys who also fail to bring consistent defensive and all-around effort to the court. Randle is the worst offender in that area. Honestly, the only players who have proven to bring consistent elite two-way effort on this team this season are Donte, Bones, Naz, Ayo so far, and maybe Rudy. Donte’s shooting has been frustratingly inconsistent. Naz and Bones have more off-nights shooting than I’d like to see, but those two along with Donte and Ayo give consistent effort. I wouldn’t consider trading Ant without at least going one season with a new head coach and a roster without Randle.

The one argument is that Ant raises his play several notches in the playoffs. He's the one guy you can really count on and has proven it throughout his playoff career. However he did fall a bit flat or out of steam in both WCF series. Not looking up numbers but I feel like they dipped some, sure competition was higher so expected a bit.

That said Ju, DDV, even Rudy haven't brought their A games in the big series (WCF). While Ant raises his level some others have fallen off. I suppose it's somewhat expected that the non superstars don't shine, but it does make the point to making a Giannis or Kyrie type of move. Kyrie is one guy who also raises his level and proven champion and could give us a more consistent punch against the OKC's or SA's.

I still think that Rudy will bring back a solid player or players if we trade him. He's still a beast and a walking top 10 defense. Even when you have guys not playing up to snuff on that end (many Wolves players this regular season).

Good points, Wolvesfan. Ant has a solid track record of raising his level in the playoffs with the one exception you noted. You’re also right about Ju, DDV and Rudy not always bringing their A games in playoff series, although I’d say that DDV is the one among those three who always brings A effort.

I’m not ready to throw in the towel on Ant becoming our MJ, Kobe or Larry. But I can’t help but think a new head coach will be necessary to make that happen. Even MJ needed Phil Jackson to take MJ’s team to the next level. I think we should keep Rudy at this point. I don’t think we can compensate sufficiently for the loss of his defensive impact. But Randle has significant trade value and trading him seems imperative to me. His presence in the starting lineup gives us two rather than one player with sticky fingers and inconsistent defense. I still think we can win a championship with Ant, but TC has his work cut out for him.

[Wolvesfan21]

Can’t argue with any of your points, Cool. But in my view, when you have a talent like Ant, your job as President of Basketball Operations is to build a championship contender around him. I’ll add that it never made sense to assume that Ant would develop into another MJ, Kobe or Larry. My view has always been that it made sense to hope Ant would take that next step that so few take but that we should have always been focused on adding similar vintage talent from which someone might emerge as that top dog - 1a or at least a highly competitive 1b next to Ant. My criticism of the Rudy deal has never centered on Rudy; it has always been tied to the opportunity costs of the deal - i.e., what we could have potentially done with all the assets we gave up. Imagine if we still had all the picks we gave up, not to mention the other assets we could have acquired for the players we gave up, along with the additional payroll flexibility. All of that would have put us in position to acquire Giannis at the deadline or maybe earlier. Other than Giannis, who knows who else we could have acquired who could have been a 1a or 1b to Ant. Rudy has been great defensively, but I thought it was the wrong call to go after a 30+ year old complementary piece (a very good one) rather than looking to acquire younger players who with the potential to be much more.

This post isn’t intended as an expression of sour grapes regret or “see I told you so. I’ve enjoyed the ride with Rudy who has been terrific. I just don’t think you trade that much for a guy like Rudy to complement a 19-year old emerging star because it’s way too early at that point to know whether that 19 year old can be what you need your top elite player to be. I’m still not sure even though I admit you might be right that Ant has hit his developmental ceiling. So here we are - at a point when it’s reasonable to suggest the possibility of trading Ant. We might have been here anyway without the Rudy trade, but once we made that deal we never had a chance to get another potential star to pair with Ant. Moreover, it would be very difficult to make up for what we’d be losing with Ant’s departure if we trade him and we’d be entering that highly uncertain world of rebuild.

My alternative to your more bold suggestion of trading Ant is to trade Randle and bring in a new head coach who might be able to get something extra out of Ant and some of the other guys who also fail to bring consistent defensive and all-around effort to the court. Randle is the worst offender in that area. Honestly, the only players who have proven to bring consistent elite two-way effort on this team this season are Donte, Bones, Naz, Ayo so far, and maybe Rudy. Donte’s shooting has been frustratingly inconsistent. Naz and Bones have more off-nights shooting than I’d like to see, but those two along with Donte and Ayo give consistent effort. I wouldn’t consider trading Ant without at least going one season with a new head coach and a roster without Randle.

The one argument is that Ant raises his play several notches in the playoffs. He's the one guy you can really count on and has proven it throughout his playoff career. However he did fall a bit flat or out of steam in both WCF series. Not looking up numbers but I feel like they dipped some, sure competition was higher so expected a bit.

That said Ju, DDV, even Rudy haven't brought their A games in the big series (WCF). While Ant raises his level some others have fallen off. I suppose it's somewhat expected that the non superstars don't shine, but it does make the point to making a Giannis or Kyrie type of move. Kyrie is one guy who also raises his level and proven champion and could give us a more consistent punch against the OKC's or SA's.

I still think that Rudy will bring back a solid player or players if we trade him. He's still a beast and a walking top 10 defense. Even when you have guys not playing up to snuff on that end (many Wolves players this regular season).

Kyrie is a name I keep going back to when I think of trades. I'd hate to go get older, but Randle for Kyrie does work I believe if we are under the 1st apron in the summer. Randle obviously going to a third team. Kyrie made up for a lot of Luka's mistakes in their finals run. I'd rather get Fox if San Antonio ever decides to focus on their young star point guards, but you can't argue Kyrie would be helpful for at least a few seasons if healthy.

Oh yeah he could be a great 1B to Ant. The thing is I could see Dallas shopping him too as they don't look ready for a run yet. They need to build a bit more through the draft / another 3-4 years away if they build it right. And yeah, of course Ju going to team 3, while younger players/picks going to Dallas.

[Wolvesfan21]

Can’t argue with any of your points, Cool. But in my view, when you have a talent like Ant, your job as President of Basketball Operations is to build a championship contender around him. I’ll add that it never made sense to assume that Ant would develop into another MJ, Kobe or Larry. My view has always been that it made sense to hope Ant would take that next step that so few take but that we should have always been focused on adding similar vintage talent from which someone might emerge as that top dog - 1a or at least a highly competitive 1b next to Ant. My criticism of the Rudy deal has never centered on Rudy; it has always been tied to the opportunity costs of the deal - i.e., what we could have potentially done with all the assets we gave up. Imagine if we still had all the picks we gave up, not to mention the other assets we could have acquired for the players we gave up, along with the additional payroll flexibility. All of that would have put us in position to acquire Giannis at the deadline or maybe earlier. Other than Giannis, who knows who else we could have acquired who could have been a 1a or 1b to Ant. Rudy has been great defensively, but I thought it was the wrong call to go after a 30+ year old complementary piece (a very good one) rather than looking to acquire younger players who with the potential to be much more.

This post isn’t intended as an expression of sour grapes regret or “see I told you so. I’ve enjoyed the ride with Rudy who has been terrific. I just don’t think you trade that much for a guy like Rudy to complement a 19-year old emerging star because it’s way too early at that point to know whether that 19 year old can be what you need your top elite player to be. I’m still not sure even though I admit you might be right that Ant has hit his developmental ceiling. So here we are - at a point when it’s reasonable to suggest the possibility of trading Ant. We might have been here anyway without the Rudy trade, but once we made that deal we never had a chance to get another potential star to pair with Ant. Moreover, it would be very difficult to make up for what we’d be losing with Ant’s departure if we trade him and we’d be entering that highly uncertain world of rebuild.

My alternative to your more bold suggestion of trading Ant is to trade Randle and bring in a new head coach who might be able to get something extra out of Ant and some of the other guys who also fail to bring consistent defensive and all-around effort to the court. Randle is the worst offender in that area. Honestly, the only players who have proven to bring consistent elite two-way effort on this team this season are Donte, Bones, Naz, Ayo so far, and maybe Rudy. Donte’s shooting has been frustratingly inconsistent. Naz and Bones have more off-nights shooting than I’d like to see, but those two along with Donte and Ayo give consistent effort. I wouldn’t consider trading Ant without at least going one season with a new head coach and a roster without Randle.

The one argument is that Ant raises his play several notches in the playoffs. He's the one guy you can really count on and has proven it throughout his playoff career. However he did fall a bit flat or out of steam in both WCF series. Not looking up numbers but I feel like they dipped some, sure competition was higher so expected a bit.

That said Ju, DDV, even Rudy haven't brought their A games in the big series (WCF). While Ant raises his level some others have fallen off. I suppose it's somewhat expected that the non superstars don't shine, but it does make the point to making a Giannis or Kyrie type of move. Kyrie is one guy who also raises his level and proven champion and could give us a more consistent punch against the OKC's or SA's.

I still think that Rudy will bring back a solid player or players if we trade him. He's still a beast and a walking top 10 defense. Even when you have guys not playing up to snuff on that end (many Wolves players this regular season).

Good points, Wolvesfan. Ant has a solid track record of raising his level in the playoffs with the one exception you noted. You’re also right about Ju, DDV and Rudy not always bringing their A games in playoff series, although I’d say that DDV is the one among those three who always brings A effort.

I’m not ready to throw in the towel on Ant becoming our MJ, Kobe or Larry. But I can’t help but think a new head coach will be necessary to make that happen. Even MJ needed Phil Jackson to take MJ’s team to the next level. I think we should keep Rudy at this point. I don’t think we can compensate sufficiently for the loss of his defensive impact. But Randle has significant trade value and trading him seems imperative to me. His presence in the starting lineup gives us two rather than one player with sticky fingers and inconsistent defense. I still think we can win a championship with Ant, but TC has his work cut out for him.

I'm not sure how Rudy and Giannis would really work on offense, when you need as much room in the paint for both Ant and Giannis, it could look clunky. That is the one scenario where a Rudy trade makes sense. We move for Giannis and really blow up the roster. Otherwise I'm with you, I'm not actively looking to trade him.