Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Cam I liked it better when you were pimping Poeltl at least he's a guy who I could get behind. Murray does nothing for me. We already have Zach Lavine and desperately need two way players, not another Bazz on the second unit. I could get behind Allen before Murray at least because we could draft him in the 20s, but I'd still rather go for a guy who passes both the eye and stat test as a defender.

I don't know what to tell you about that. Over this past week, you've talked about him like you haven't really even watched him play. I can't make you watch the games.

Both Poeltl and Murray are top-five talents in this draft. Both should absolutely be in the discussion for our pick should we stay in the top-five. That's where I'll leave that.

Ingram, Simmons, Bender, Brown, Poeltl. Sorry Murray's not making my top 5 list. I prefer Buddy Hield and Dunn over Murray too. Don't sleep on Valentine. He's really elevated his game and rates well on both sides of the ball. He also has the top box score plus minus in college basketball. Don't sleep on Skal. Some guys who I like better than Allen in the 20 range are Brice Johnson and Pat McCaw if he comes out.

TeamRicky wrote:

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Cam I liked it better when you were pimping Poeltl at least he's a guy who I could get behind. Murray does nothing for me. We already have Zach Lavine and desperately need two way players, not another Bazz on the second unit. I could get behind Allen before Murray at least because we could draft him in the 20s, but I'd still rather go for a guy who passes both the eye and stat test as a defender.

I don't know what to tell you about that. Over this past week, you've talked about him like you haven't really even watched him play. I can't make you watch the games.

Both Poeltl and Murray are top-five talents in this draft. Both should absolutely be in the discussion for our pick should we stay in the top-five. That's where I'll leave that.

Ingram, Simmons, Bender, Brown, Poeltl. Sorry Murray's not making my top 5 list. I prefer Buddy Hield and Dunn over Murray too. Don't sleep on Valentine. He's really elevated his game and rates well on both sides of the ball. He also has the top box score plus minus in college basketball. Don't sleep on Skal. Some guys who I like better than Allen in the 20 range are Brice Johnson and Pat McCaw if he comes out.

It feels like you aren't allowing for Murray's game to grow. What would his game look like as a junior or senior in college? The guys that elevated their games should get credit and so much of the draft is projecting what one player can do and improve at the next level it's a crapshoot. Players like Love and Curry raised their games to heights nobody really imagined. Players like Jimmy Butler or Kris Middleton or Draymond Green are terrific players that were not projected to be that significant. I guess what I am trying to say is I think your stance of the guys you like is fine but it seems odd to dismiss a player with the abilities at such a young age like Murray because basically at his young age he doesn't seem like a good defender right now.

TeamRicky wrote:

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Cam I liked it better when you were pimping Poeltl at least he's a guy who I could get behind. Murray does nothing for me. We already have Zach Lavine and desperately need two way players, not another Bazz on the second unit. I could get behind Allen before Murray at least because we could draft him in the 20s, but I'd still rather go for a guy who passes both the eye and stat test as a defender.

I don't know what to tell you about that. Over this past week, you've talked about him like you haven't really even watched him play. I can't make you watch the games.

Both Poeltl and Murray are top-five talents in this draft. Both should absolutely be in the discussion for our pick should we stay in the top-five. That's where I'll leave that.

Ingram, Simmons, Bender, Brown, Poeltl. Sorry Murray's not making my top 5 list. I prefer Buddy Hield and Dunn over Murray too. Don't sleep on Valentine. He's really elevated his game and rates well on both sides of the ball. He also has the top box score plus minus in college basketball. Don't sleep on Skal. Some guys who I like better than Allen in the 20 range are Brice Johnson and Pat McCaw if he comes out.

How many times do we have to talk about Valentine? My goodness. If you flip through this thread to almost the beginning, you'll see that I had him as a lottery guy when the majority discussed him as a late first. I'm not sleeping on Valentine at all. I also don't see him as anyone that should be considered in the top-five. To me and plenty of others, that's ludicrous. And his dominance at the college level shouldn't surprise anyone. He's coached by Tom Izzo, he's a senior, he was already talented from the jump and he's had years to work on his game and his body.

Skal hasn't done anything this season to impress me. Not much to judge him off either considering for the season he's averaging about 15 MPG and he's inconsistent as hell. He probably should stay another year at Kentucky and refine his game and body a bit. Could be a big boost to him and his future.

It's interesting you talk about only wanting guys who play both ends of the floor who are solid passers, talk down about prospects that have weaknesses defensively or moving the rock, and then you say you like Brice Johnson? Talk about contradictory thoughts. If you believed that, you would also be steering clear of Johnson.

Lastly, on page 59 of this thread, you said, "I haven't watched much tape on this guy" in reference to Grayson Allen. So, how in the logical world can you handpick two players you'd rather have over Allen if you really don't know much about him? What sense does that make?

You're a solid and active poster and I respect you for that, but some of your comments on prospects in this draft class are quite puzzling, to say it nicely. I'm having a hard time understanding why you're saying what you're saying because a lot of it just does not add up.

Camden0916 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Cam I liked it better when you were pimping Poeltl at least he's a guy who I could get behind. Murray does nothing for me. We already have Zach Lavine and desperately need two way players, not another Bazz on the second unit. I could get behind Allen before Murray at least because we could draft him in the 20s, but I'd still rather go for a guy who passes both the eye and stat test as a defender.

I don't know what to tell you about that. Over this past week, you've talked about him like you haven't really even watched him play. I can't make you watch the games.

Both Poeltl and Murray are top-five talents in this draft. Both should absolutely be in the discussion for our pick should we stay in the top-five. That's where I'll leave that.

Ingram, Simmons, Bender, Brown, Poeltl. Sorry Murray's not making my top 5 list. I prefer Buddy Hield and Dunn over Murray too. Don't sleep on Valentine. He's really elevated his game and rates well on both sides of the ball. He also has the top box score plus minus in college basketball. Don't sleep on Skal. Some guys who I like better than Allen in the 20 range are Brice Johnson and Pat McCaw if he comes out.

How many times do we have to talk about Valentine? My goodness. If you flip through this thread to almost the beginning, you'll see that I had him as a lottery guy when the majority discussed him as a late first. I'm not sleeping on Valentine at all. I also don't see him as anyone that should be considered in the top-five. To me and plenty of others, that's ludicrous. And his dominance at the college level shouldn't surprise anyone. He's coached by Tom Izzo, he's a senior, he was already talented from the jump and he's had years to work on his game and his body.

Skal hasn't done anything this season to impress me. Not much to judge him off either considering for the season he's averaging about 15 MPG and he's inconsistent as hell. He probably should stay another year at Kentucky and refine his game and body a bit. Could be a big boost to him and his future.

It's interesting you talk about only wanting guys who play both ends of the floor who are solid passers, talk down about prospects that have weaknesses defensively or moving the rock, and then you say you like Brice Johnson? Talk about contradictory thoughts. If you believed that, you would also be steering clear of Johnson.

Lastly, on page 59 of this thread, you said, "I haven't watched much tape on this guy" in reference to Grayson Allen. So, how in the logical world can you handpick two players you'd rather have over Allen if you really don't know much about him? What sense does that make?

You're a solid and active poster and I respect you for that, but some of your comments on prospects in this draft class are quite puzzling, to say it nicely. I'm having a hard time understanding why you're saying what you're saying because a lot of it just does not add up.

I agree with you that Skal should go back to Kentucky from a basketball/development standpoint. From a financial stand point he shouldn't. Guy will be a top 15 pick and he has an opportunity to cash out. If he goes back to Kentucky and is the same then he may never realize maximum earnings. I think he jumps ship and I probably would too if I were him. Cash in while you can. He isn't remotely ready though.

Cam, I do my homework, so just because I disagree with you, don't try to insult me on how I go about my evaluations. I have a pretty good track record as an arm chair scout which I'll hold up to any other arm chair scout. I don't have time right now to respond to your posts, but I'll try to do so at a later time.

TeamRicky wrote:Cam, I do my homework, so just because I disagree with you, don't try to insult me on how I go about my evaluations. I have a pretty good track record as an arm chair scout which I'll hold up to any other arm chair scout. I don't have time right now to respond to your posts, but I'll try to do so at a later time.

Ricky...do you actually watch a lot of college ball? I ask seriously.....this is not a shot. I seem to recall you saying you are from overseas, so I am curious if you have many opportunities to watch live games. Your posts are littered with statistics, and many comments that feel like you regurgitate things you have read about players....perhaps from even before they entered college (Murray is case in point). I ask because as Cam says, much of your commentary seems contradictory to what many of us see in games. Nothing wrong with utilizing articles, past and present, but you also need to watch live tape to get a feel for these guys and the roles they play.

Also, I brought up a couple days ago, but this 2-way player you are hyping doesn't exist coming out of college. Poetl may be as close as it comes this year, and I believe Q commented a couple days back about the inconsistencies of bigs playing defense in the NBA....even those that are great college defenders (ala Dieng). He is NOT Davis, or even Towns as a collegiate defender. And frankly, Towns has been WILDLY inconsistent as a defender this year. Shows how tough it is to come into the NBA and play even solid defense. Murray is certainly a top-notch offensive threat right now. One of the better ones in college in fact. Is defense a calling card.....nope. At least not yet. But nor is it for Simmons, Bender or Ingram. The only guard that comes close is Dunn, but I suspect his offense will REALLY struggle at the next level...at least for a couple years. You can not prefer Murray...that's fine...but to discount totally based on lack of defense (which pretty much mirrors other prospects) seems short-sighted.

TeamRicky wrote:Cam, I do my homework, so just because I disagree with you, don't try to insult me on how I go about my evaluations. I have a pretty good track record as an arm chair scout which I'll hold up to any other arm chair scout. I don't have time right now to respond to your posts, but I'll try to do so at a later time.

I'm not sure where in my post I insulted you. The only thing you could come away with as an insult if you reached hard enough would be that I said you've made contradictory statements, but you have. I'm not making this a personal thing because that's really not my goal. I'm trying to keep it strictly hoops.

Statistics are one thing, but I'll take the eye test over almost anything, personally. I'm pretty sure you had this D-rating discussion in another thread in reference to Rubio, so me comparing Allen's defense to Rubio's defense probably doesn't do much in case for my argument but when you watch him that's who comes to mind. In college he seems to be guarding some smaller, quicker players and he clearly uses his length and girth to disrupt them more then matching athleticism. That's how Ricky guards, gets in his opponents face and uses size to smother them. I am curious how Allen would end up guarding 2's who are consistently bigger then him, as some will be. His video doesn't show that. The only one it shows is him fighting with Nigel Hayes in the post, which I'll admit, it's pretty impressive.

Ingram's putting on a show today.

Allen went 0-4 from 3 but had 17 foul shots... damn, that's impressive. He does really attack the basket doesn't he?