AbeVigodaLive wrote:The team was 37 - 22 (63%... 52-win pace) with Butler and Towns in the lineup. Considering the team hadn't made the playoffs for 13 years... nor even had a winning record for 12 years... I can't agree that it was NOT working.
Or that Thibs should have been fired after the 2018 season.
[Note: Retool/rebuild... after one winning season out of 14? Yikes. Personally, I expect more from the local NBA franchise.]
Yet they almost missed the playoffs after Butler missed his usual amount of games. Maybe that coincided with Butler sleeping with KAT's girl which sounds plausible as something Butler would do. I seem to remember KAT's game absolutely tanking, especially in the playoffs.
Wether that is true or not, things were not working in the end between them. Which is why Butler decided to late in the summer ask for a trade. Maybe he said it's with me or them (Kat and Wiggins), you pick. I really don't know. Thibs should have, Glen should have had some knowledge of what was going on.
If Thibs was even remotely proactive he would have moved on from Butler sooner, same with Taylor and firing Thibs.
Sure. When Butler announced he wanted out... sure. Thibs lost me for good when he let Butler highjack the team and hold it hostage... while completely throwing the two young players (ironically/coincidentally/conveniently making more money than him) under the bus.
That's when Thibs should have been fired.
But it seemed like you (and others at the time) were advocating for firing Thibs just because the 47 - 35 season wasn't good enough. Those are two entirely things for me.
Yes and no. The season wasn't good enough in that the combination of Thibs, Butler, KAT Wiggins wasn't ever going to be a championship team. Because for the reasons I mentioned before, Butler was going to be traded or let go (after the next season) for one. Taylor wasn't going to start paying LUX tax based on his history. The other contracts Thibs had put the team with limited the near term upside. I didn't see any path to how they were going to win it all with that group. So in the end, my feeling was to retool then. Thibs had enough of a track record of far too many poor decisions and with the lack of any progress of Wiggins, I just saw no chance.
.
The Wolves were nearly the worst organization in all of sports when it comes to making the playoffs, and definitely in the NBA.
Championships?
The Wolves have been near a championship only 1 time in 30+ years. And even then, they might only have been the 4th best team in the league. With a 13-season playoff drought... I don't give a shit about championships. Just give me meaningful games. Just give me a glimmer of legit hope. Just give me more wins than losses.
The championship or bust angle is great for national pundits and tv rabble rousers. Or teams with LeBron James. Or teams in high-profile locations where superstar FAs want to play. The championship angle was a dead issue in 2017 with the Timberwolves. There's real value in trying to be the next Utah or Portland or Memphis... etc.
And it's entirely more realistic.
I understand your mindset, but I would rather have some hope that the ultimate goal is possible. I want a contender again, to even have a chance. The Wolves had a chance with KG, especially the Spree/Cassell years.
I didn't see the Thibs / Butler group being anything more then what they were. Second tier. So sure, my plan for going all in on a rookie was a big gamble (even if he was a sure thing to me), but sometimes you have to roll the dice big to win big. Playing it safe won't ever get it done here. Players won't just come and sign here, you have to go out and get them.
Toronto wouldn't have won it all unless they went for Kawhi. They got him and got it done.
While we're on the subject of thinking about what could have been and how to turn the Wolves into contenders...
I wonder what would have happened if Minnesota had really pushed all of their chips in during the summer of 2017 and traded for Kyrie Irving after they acquired Jimmy Butler. That is in all honesty the domino that never fell to really push that team into championship contention. Karl-Anthony Towns and Butler reportedly wanted to play with Irving and were said to be courting him at the time. So, why did a deal that made all the sense in world at the time never happen?
Well, Glen Taylor came out and stated that Andrew Wiggins was untouchable and would receive a max contract. No trade would involve him going to Cleveland, or anywhere else for that matter. Why am I bringing this up?
I think it's fair to speculate that a team built around Towns, Irving, and Butler would have been real title contenders -- and that the supporting pieces would have been much easier to assemble once the "big three" was in place. Maybe the Wolves just got in their own way by deeming players untouchable when better alternatives could have been acquired. The road to contention was almost there, though.
Alas, here we are without Butler or Irving, and Wiggins has seemingly reinvented himself so perhaps Minnesota is still in good shape moving forward. But if we're looking back on blockbuster moves that never happened that probably should have happened -- that's the one I'm focusing on first.
Camden0916 wrote:While we're on the subject of thinking about what could have been and how to turn the Wolves into contenders...
I wonder what would have happened if Minnesota had really pushed all of their chips in during the summer of 2017 and traded for Kyrie Irving after they acquired Jimmy Butler. That is in all honesty the domino that never fell to really push that team into championship contention. Karl-Anthony Towns and Butler reportedly wanted to play with Irving and were said to be courting him at the time. So, why did a deal that made all the sense in world at the time never happen?
Well, Glen Taylor came out and stated that Andrew Wiggins was untouchable and would receive a max contract. No trade would involve him going to Cleveland, or anywhere else for that matter. Why am I bringing this up?
I think it's fair to speculate that a team built around Towns, Irving, and Butler would have been real title contenders -- and that the supporting pieces would have been much easier to assemble once the "big three" was in place. Maybe the Wolves just got in their own way by deeming players untouchable when better alternatives could have been acquired. The road to contention was almost there, though.
Alas, here we are without Butler or Irving, and Wiggins has seemingly reinvented himself so perhaps Minnesota is still in good shape moving forward. But if we're looking back on blockbuster moves that never happened that probably should have happened -- that's the one I'm focusing on first.
Just for clarity are you saying that Taylor vetoed a real Irving trade or made it impossible to trade Wiggins for Kyrie? I would be wary to think that there could be any certainty of what Kyrie's real intentions were or are in any professional setting. But if we're just pipe-dreaming hypothetical scenarios based on trade rumors sure that would have been an interesting threesome talent wise. If we're imagining all scenarios also could have completely alienated Towns to the point of losing him altogether based on the literal insanity of his work environment between Jimmy, Kyrie, and Thibs.
Camden0916 wrote:While we're on the subject of thinking about what could have been and how to turn the Wolves into contenders...
I wonder what would have happened if Minnesota had really pushed all of their chips in during the summer of 2017 and traded for Kyrie Irving after they acquired Jimmy Butler. That is in all honesty the domino that never fell to really push that team into championship contention. Karl-Anthony Towns and Butler reportedly wanted to play with Irving and were said to be courting him at the time. So, why did a deal that made all the sense in world at the time never happen?
Well, Glen Taylor came out and stated that Andrew Wiggins was untouchable and would receive a max contract. No trade would involve him going to Cleveland, or anywhere else for that matter. Why am I bringing this up?
I think it's fair to speculate that a team built around Towns, Irving, and Butler would have been real title contenders -- and that the supporting pieces would have been much easier to assemble once the "big three" was in place. Maybe the Wolves just got in their own way by deeming players untouchable when better alternatives could have been acquired. The road to contention was almost there, though.
Alas, here we are without Butler or Irving, and Wiggins has seemingly reinvented himself so perhaps Minnesota is still in good shape moving forward. But if we're looking back on blockbuster moves that never happened that probably should have happened -- that's the one I'm focusing on first.
Just for clarity are you saying that Taylor vetoed a real Irving trade or made it impossible to trade Wiggins for Kyrie? I would be wary to think that there could be any certainty of what Kyrie's real intentions were or are in any professional setting. But if we're just pipe-dreaming hypothetical scenarios based on trade rumors sure that would have been an interesting threesome talent wise. If we're imagining all scenarios also could have completely alienated Towns to the point of losing him altogether based on the literal insanity of his work environment between Jimmy, Kyrie, and Thibs.
From what we know and what's been reported, I think Glen Taylor made it impossible for Tom Thibodeau to make real offers for Kyrie Irving because of Taylor's direction to not trade Andrew Wiggins.
But yeah, if we're going to bring up transactions that didn't happen in the past that could have turned the Wolves into contenders, I think we have to look at the Irving trade as one that perhaps Minnesota missed out on. Trading for Jimmy Butler was putting one foot through the door of contention, but going and getting Irving on top of that would have been a full two-footed leap.
Have you noticed the effect Irving's presence has had on his last two teams? Boston couldn't wait to get rid of him, and he's led his current team to a 6-8 record. This isn't a video game. Putting talented players together doesn't always work, especially when you have divisive personalities like Butler and Irving. Not to mention their lack of durability. This team has always, and still needs to be built around KAT. Rosas still has that chance and I'm looking forward to what he decides to do. But I bet he isn't close to adding any player who could disrupt the chemistry on this team.
As great as an individual player Irving is, he doesn't make teammates better. Score first point guards are tough. Like Harden too. They pretty much iso dominate the ball most of the time while teammates just stand around and watch. Boston had a really good team before he showed up, then they pretty much sucked comparatively. I'm trying to think of a team who won it all when the PG was the best player and ball dominant/score first. Kyrie won, but he shared the ball with LeBron a lot. Iverson got close I guess. I can't think of any really. As much as they bring I think they detract too. Better 2nd or 3rd options. Dwayne Wade maybe in 2006?
Camden0916 wrote:While we're on the subject of thinking about what could have been and how to turn the Wolves into contenders...
I wonder what would have happened if Minnesota had really pushed all of their chips in during the summer of 2017 and traded for Kyrie Irving after they acquired Jimmy Butler. That is in all honesty the domino that never fell to really push that team into championship contention. Karl-Anthony Towns and Butler reportedly wanted to play with Irving and were said to be courting him at the time. So, why did a deal that made all the sense in world at the time never happen?
Well, Glen Taylor came out and stated that Andrew Wiggins was untouchable and would receive a max contract. No trade would involve him going to Cleveland, or anywhere else for that matter. Why am I bringing this up?
I think it's fair to speculate that a team built around Towns, Irving, and Butler would have been real title contenders -- and that the supporting pieces would have been much easier to assemble once the "big three" was in place. Maybe the Wolves just got in their own way by deeming players untouchable when better alternatives could have been acquired. The road to contention was almost there, though.
Alas, here we are without Butler or Irving, and Wiggins has seemingly reinvented himself so perhaps Minnesota is still in good shape moving forward. But if we're looking back on blockbuster moves that never happened that probably should have happened -- that's the one I'm focusing on first.
Just for clarity are you saying that Taylor vetoed a real Irving trade or made it impossible to trade Wiggins for Kyrie? I would be wary to think that there could be any certainty of what Kyrie's real intentions were or are in any professional setting. But if we're just pipe-dreaming hypothetical scenarios based on trade rumors sure that would have been an interesting threesome talent wise. If we're imagining all scenarios also could have completely alienated Towns to the point of losing him altogether based on the literal insanity of his work environment between Jimmy, Kyrie, and Thibs.
From what we know and what's been reported, I think Glen Taylor made it impossible for Tom Thibodeau to make real offers for Kyrie Irving because of Taylor's direction to not trade Andrew Wiggins.
But yeah, if we're going to bring up transactions that didn't happen in the past that could have turned the Wolves into contenders, I think we have to look at the Irving trade as one that perhaps Minnesota missed out on. Trading for Jimmy Butler was putting one foot through the door of contention, but going and getting Irving on top of that would have been a full two-footed leap.
Didnt lip say it was thibs and not taylor that didn't want to trade wiggs?
Camden0916 wrote:While we're on the subject of thinking about what could have been and how to turn the Wolves into contenders...
I wonder what would have happened if Minnesota had really pushed all of their chips in during the summer of 2017 and traded for Kyrie Irving after they acquired Jimmy Butler. That is in all honesty the domino that never fell to really push that team into championship contention. Karl-Anthony Towns and Butler reportedly wanted to play with Irving and were said to be courting him at the time. So, why did a deal that made all the sense in world at the time never happen?
Well, Glen Taylor came out and stated that Andrew Wiggins was untouchable and would receive a max contract. No trade would involve him going to Cleveland, or anywhere else for that matter. Why am I bringing this up?
I think it's fair to speculate that a team built around Towns, Irving, and Butler would have been real title contenders -- and that the supporting pieces would have been much easier to assemble once the "big three" was in place. Maybe the Wolves just got in their own way by deeming players untouchable when better alternatives could have been acquired. The road to contention was almost there, though.
Alas, here we are without Butler or Irving, and Wiggins has seemingly reinvented himself so perhaps Minnesota is still in good shape moving forward. But if we're looking back on blockbuster moves that never happened that probably should have happened -- that's the one I'm focusing on first.
Just for clarity are you saying that Taylor vetoed a real Irving trade or made it impossible to trade Wiggins for Kyrie? I would be wary to think that there could be any certainty of what Kyrie's real intentions were or are in any professional setting. But if we're just pipe-dreaming hypothetical scenarios based on trade rumors sure that would have been an interesting threesome talent wise. If we're imagining all scenarios also could have completely alienated Towns to the point of losing him altogether based on the literal insanity of his work environment between Jimmy, Kyrie, and Thibs.
From what we know and what's been reported, I think Glen Taylor made it impossible for Tom Thibodeau to make real offers for Kyrie Irving because of Taylor's direction to not trade Andrew Wiggins.
But yeah, if we're going to bring up transactions that didn't happen in the past that could have turned the Wolves into contenders, I think we have to look at the Irving trade as one that perhaps Minnesota missed out on. Trading for Jimmy Butler was putting one foot through the door of contention, but going and getting Irving on top of that would have been a full two-footed leap.
Didnt lip say it was thibs and not taylor that didn't want to trade wiggs?
In the lavine trade yes. Thibs chose Wiggins. But it has been strongly hinted at that thibs tried to trade Wiggins before butler left and Taylor put an end to any trade talks
Camden0916 wrote:While we're on the subject of thinking about what could have been and how to turn the Wolves into contenders...
I wonder what would have happened if Minnesota had really pushed all of their chips in during the summer of 2017 and traded for Kyrie Irving after they acquired Jimmy Butler. That is in all honesty the domino that never fell to really push that team into championship contention. Karl-Anthony Towns and Butler reportedly wanted to play with Irving and were said to be courting him at the time. So, why did a deal that made all the sense in world at the time never happen?
Well, Glen Taylor came out and stated that Andrew Wiggins was untouchable and would receive a max contract. No trade would involve him going to Cleveland, or anywhere else for that matter. Why am I bringing this up?
I think it's fair to speculate that a team built around Towns, Irving, and Butler would have been real title contenders -- and that the supporting pieces would have been much easier to assemble once the "big three" was in place. Maybe the Wolves just got in their own way by deeming players untouchable when better alternatives could have been acquired. The road to contention was almost there, though.
Alas, here we are without Butler or Irving, and Wiggins has seemingly reinvented himself so perhaps Minnesota is still in good shape moving forward. But if we're looking back on blockbuster moves that never happened that probably should have happened -- that's the one I'm focusing on first.
Just for clarity are you saying that Taylor vetoed a real Irving trade or made it impossible to trade Wiggins for Kyrie? I would be wary to think that there could be any certainty of what Kyrie's real intentions were or are in any professional setting. But if we're just pipe-dreaming hypothetical scenarios based on trade rumors sure that would have been an interesting threesome talent wise. If we're imagining all scenarios also could have completely alienated Towns to the point of losing him altogether based on the literal insanity of his work environment between Jimmy, Kyrie, and Thibs.
From what we know and what's been reported, I think Glen Taylor made it impossible for Tom Thibodeau to make real offers for Kyrie Irving because of Taylor's direction to not trade Andrew Wiggins.
But yeah, if we're going to bring up transactions that didn't happen in the past that could have turned the Wolves into contenders, I think we have to look at the Irving trade as one that perhaps Minnesota missed out on. Trading for Jimmy Butler was putting one foot through the door of contention, but going and getting Irving on top of that would have been a full two-footed leap.
Didnt lip say it was thibs and not taylor that didn't want to trade wiggs?
In the lavine trade yes. Thibs chose Wiggins. But it has been strongly hinted at that thibs tried to trade Wiggins before butler left and Taylor put an end to any trade talks
Jon K has said numerous times the Cavs would have never done the Wiggins for Kyrie deal the Wolves didn't have a package the Cavs wanted. They liked the deal they got much better. Keep in mind the Nets pick was considered to be VERY valuable because...the Nets sucked. It was supposed to be a higher pick than it was. I think it's fair to say going after Kyrie might have been something to look into but I'm not sure that was going to happen either. Interestingly if Wiggins continues to play pretty well...keeping him around over Kyrie or even Lavine might look like the right move. Let's see. It's wild we are even at a point where that's not ridiculous homerism.
