Minnesota Sports Forum

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:Trading D'Angelo Russell doesn't fix this roster. I hate to break that to you and everyone else who feels similarly. The glaring issues still exist plus now you have even less shot creation and perimeter shooting -- depending on what you get back in return, which I wouldn't expect to be much considering Russell's status as an expiring contract.

They'd be better off doing absolutely nothing and giving this group the entire season to play through it together than to panic and sell off parts for... different parts. Either Karl-Anthony Towns and Rudy Gobert will be an effective pairing or they won't.

It wouldn't hurt, because DLO to Gobert should be an easy pass but it's too difficult for DLO which is odd.

Don't care about the KAT Gobert on court pairing. That is and will be fine. I'm more concerned about the parts around them. I do think KAT could get traded still in the offseason if things don't go well. But he is still better as a 4 in my head. I've seen enough to see him as too big a liability playing the 5 full time. It didn't work, we saw it long enough!!!

KAT played the C position full time last season and this team finished 10 games over .500. And who were KAT's teammates last season? DLO along with Edwards and McDaniels in only their second NBA season. Towns should be lionized for finishing 10 games over .500 and seriously challenging the 2nd seed Grizzlies in the playoffs with DLO and two second year players as his key rotation teammates. The Wolves wouldn't have been within sniffing distance of the playoffs last season without KAT. The only other time KAT has had any semblance of decent talent around him was the season Butler was here. And what happened? Well, the Wolves made the playoffs even though KAT was only 22 years old at the time - playing center. As for the rest of the roster that season - Jeff Teague, Jamaal Crawford - really underwhelming.

Bottom line is that KAT is a great player and he's proven to be great at the center position. He's not a good defender, but neither is Jokic. He paired well with a PF named Vanderbilt who is highly mobile, a good defender and very good rebounder. A better version of Vando is what KAT needs - someone who's a bit longer and stronger while also being more of a scoring threat than Vando. Actually, one might say he needs the Vando of this season. :). Neither KAT nor the position he plays is the problem with the Wolves this season and trading him would not be part of a viable solution; it would simply be an act of desperation that probably would not end well for this franchise. I'm not a big DLO fan, but I'll echo Cam in saying that DLO isn't the problem either. Fact is, this team didn't have a problem at the end of last season when KAT, DLO, Edwards, McDaniels, Beverly and Beasley were the main rotation players. The team simply needed to continue on the development path it was one with a couple tweaks. Connelly and his front office minions CREATED a problem with the Gobert deal, which disrupted a team that shouldn't have been disrupted, sapped it of its identity and left the Wolves rotation with a sub-optimal mix of players.

It's amazing how it's often so much harder to see the elephant when we're really close by. Obviously, the elephant is Rudy Gobert. The rest of the League sees it and actually saw it back when TC made the deal last summer. Gobert wasn't a good fit for this team when KAT was playing and it's obvious he's not a good fit with KAT out. KAT, Edwards and DLO were fine together. But KAT, DLO Edwards and Rudy Gobert? Not so good. We'll be better when KAT gets back, but not good enough to crack the top five in the West or win a playoff series. Hopefully by that time fans, and more importantly, the Wolves front office will see the elephant and take care of the problem.

The Wolves started the year terrible because DLO was terrible and shooting horribly, along with Nowell too. That is a fact. If he plays up to his contract as a max player, remember he is a max player not a role player salary, then the Wolves would be above .500 right now. Nowell is not a max player so his terrible shooting to start the year is a little less annoying.

JMac on the other hand despite also shooting poor was running the offense well. That is sad that JMac was outplaying both Nowell and DLO considering his contract and lack of playing time.

As far as KAT in the playoffs he melted down, couldn't defend and stay on the floor and the team was getting whacked on the boards. That is why they lost. They couldn't defend and rebound. KAT is who he is at this point. He cannot play the 5 full time and succeed in the playoffs. As far as DLO he was benched and terrible too. We lost in the playoffs because the two max players were shit. KAT had at least a few great nights but you need to bring it every night to win a series, not every other.

I'm still concerned about the playoff future of both DLO and KAT. Neither has proven effective.

So in the end the reason TC made the move for Gobert was because they couldn't defend the paint and rebound, he has largely fixed that when he is on the floor, though we still need better rebounding from all 5. One guy can't do it all, thats ridiculous to expect. Gobert does need to be better too, he hasn't been playing to his standard either.

KAT melted down and couldn't stay on the floor?? Seriously, you're in some alternative reality. KAT led the Wolves in scoring and rebounding in last year's playoff series. He averaged 37 minutes, 22 points and 11 rebounds per game. At 37 minutes per game, he obviously stayed on the floor and he was highly productive as always. He had only one bad game with 8 points and 5 rebounds. But he did have 5 blocks in that game. He was tremendous in the other five games, averaging 24.6 points and 12 rebounds in those games.

Clearly, KAT wasn't the problem in last year's playoff series - not the problem with the team's rebounding for sure. Not surprisingly, the Gobert trade hasn't improved the Wolves rebounding this season. But as you noted, "one guy can't do it all...". Well, duh. That's why you don't give up what TC gave up for ONE GUY - especially a role player. Yes, Rudy is a role player. He's excellent in his role, but that's it.

It's certainly fair to put a lot of blame of DLO for last season's series loss to the Grizzlies. But DLO was also the key to winning the play-in game against the Clippers. And let's not forget that the Grizzlies were the #2 seed in the West last season. They're top three again this season so far. In other words, they're a really, really good team. No shame in losing to the Grizzlies in six games last season. The key was keeping the group together and improving incrementally around KAT, Edwards and McDaniels. I've always been open to moving DLO, but I've never come up with a deal for him that would definitely make the team better.

If Rudy is a role player Durant is a role player. You have to consider that defense is 50% of the game. I don't think you are giving him credit for being the best defender in the NBA for the last 5 years.

I honestly like the strong defender then the strong scorer too. But considering that Rudy on offense if properly worked in is arguably the best screen and roller in the NBA and the best finisher in the NBA (has the stats to back it up). Rudy is actually elite on both ends IF used properly.

Think if a good-great PG like Chris Paul was this teams PG right now, how many easy dunks a game would Rudy be getting?

Instead we have DLO who is unable to screen and role and Ant who is a work in progress but shows tremendous upside still. Nowell who has work to go for sure as a passer.

If anyone should be succeeding now with Gobert it is DLO. He should have 4-5 assist lob dunks a game.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

Camden wrote:Trading D'Angelo Russell doesn't fix this roster. I hate to break that to you and everyone else who feels similarly. The glaring issues still exist plus now you have even less shot creation and perimeter shooting -- depending on what you get back in return, which I wouldn't expect to be much considering Russell's status as an expiring contract.

They'd be better off doing absolutely nothing and giving this group the entire season to play through it together than to panic and sell off parts for... different parts. Either Karl-Anthony Towns and Rudy Gobert will be an effective pairing or they won't.

It wouldn't hurt, because DLO to Gobert should be an easy pass but it's too difficult for DLO which is odd.

Don't care about the KAT Gobert on court pairing. That is and will be fine. I'm more concerned about the parts around them. I do think KAT could get traded still in the offseason if things don't go well. But he is still better as a 4 in my head. I've seen enough to see him as too big a liability playing the 5 full time. It didn't work, we saw it long enough!!!

KAT played the C position full time last season and this team finished 10 games over .500. And who were KAT's teammates last season? DLO along with Edwards and McDaniels in only their second NBA season. Towns should be lionized for finishing 10 games over .500 and seriously challenging the 2nd seed Grizzlies in the playoffs with DLO and two second year players as his key rotation teammates. The Wolves wouldn't have been within sniffing distance of the playoffs last season without KAT. The only other time KAT has had any semblance of decent talent around him was the season Butler was here. And what happened? Well, the Wolves made the playoffs even though KAT was only 22 years old at the time - playing center. As for the rest of the roster that season - Jeff Teague, Jamaal Crawford - really underwhelming.

Bottom line is that KAT is a great player and he's proven to be great at the center position. He's not a good defender, but neither is Jokic. He paired well with a PF named Vanderbilt who is highly mobile, a good defender and very good rebounder. A better version of Vando is what KAT needs - someone who's a bit longer and stronger while also being more of a scoring threat than Vando. Actually, one might say he needs the Vando of this season. :). Neither KAT nor the position he plays is the problem with the Wolves this season and trading him would not be part of a viable solution; it would simply be an act of desperation that probably would not end well for this franchise. I'm not a big DLO fan, but I'll echo Cam in saying that DLO isn't the problem either. Fact is, this team didn't have a problem at the end of last season when KAT, DLO, Edwards, McDaniels, Beverly and Beasley were the main rotation players. The team simply needed to continue on the development path it was one with a couple tweaks. Connelly and his front office minions CREATED a problem with the Gobert deal, which disrupted a team that shouldn't have been disrupted, sapped it of its identity and left the Wolves rotation with a sub-optimal mix of players.

It's amazing how it's often so much harder to see the elephant when we're really close by. Obviously, the elephant is Rudy Gobert. The rest of the League sees it and actually saw it back when TC made the deal last summer. Gobert wasn't a good fit for this team when KAT was playing and it's obvious he's not a good fit with KAT out. KAT, Edwards and DLO were fine together. But KAT, DLO Edwards and Rudy Gobert? Not so good. We'll be better when KAT gets back, but not good enough to crack the top five in the West or win a playoff series. Hopefully by that time fans, and more importantly, the Wolves front office will see the elephant and take care of the problem.

The Wolves started the year terrible because DLO was terrible and shooting horribly, along with Nowell too. That is a fact. If he plays up to his contract as a max player, remember he is a max player not a role player salary, then the Wolves would be above .500 right now. Nowell is not a max player so his terrible shooting to start the year is a little less annoying.

JMac on the other hand despite also shooting poor was running the offense well. That is sad that JMac was outplaying both Nowell and DLO considering his contract and lack of playing time.

As far as KAT in the playoffs he melted down, couldn't defend and stay on the floor and the team was getting whacked on the boards. That is why they lost. They couldn't defend and rebound. KAT is who he is at this point. He cannot play the 5 full time and succeed in the playoffs. As far as DLO he was benched and terrible too. We lost in the playoffs because the two max players were shit. KAT had at least a few great nights but you need to bring it every night to win a series, not every other.

I'm still concerned about the playoff future of both DLO and KAT. Neither has proven effective.

So in the end the reason TC made the move for Gobert was because they couldn't defend the paint and rebound, he has largely fixed that when he is on the floor, though we still need better rebounding from all 5. One guy can't do it all, thats ridiculous to expect. Gobert does need to be better too, he hasn't been playing to his standard either.

KAT melted down and couldn't stay on the floor?? Seriously, you're in some alternative reality. KAT led the Wolves in scoring and rebounding in last year's playoff series. He averaged 37 minutes, 22 points and 11 rebounds per game. At 37 minutes per game, he obviously stayed on the floor and he was highly productive as always. He had only one bad game with 8 points and 5 rebounds. But he did have 5 blocks in that game. He was tremendous in the other five games, averaging 24.6 points and 12 rebounds in those games.

Clearly, KAT wasn't the problem in last year's playoff series - not the problem with the team's rebounding for sure. Not surprisingly, the Gobert trade hasn't improved the Wolves rebounding this season. But as you noted, "one guy can't do it all...". Well, duh. That's why you don't give up what TC gave up for ONE GUY - especially a role player. Yes, Rudy is a role player. He's excellent in his role, but that's it.

It's certainly fair to put a lot of blame of DLO for last season's series loss to the Grizzlies. But DLO was also the key to winning the play-in game against the Clippers. And let's not forget that the Grizzlies were the #2 seed in the West last season. They're top three again this season so far. In other words, they're a really, really good team. No shame in losing to the Grizzlies in six games last season. The key was keeping the group together and improving incrementally around KAT, Edwards and McDaniels. I've always been open to moving DLO, but I've never come up with a deal for him that would definitely make the team better.

If Rudy is a role player Durant is a role player. You have to consider that defense is 50% of the game. I don't think you are giving him credit for being the best defender in the NBA for the last 5 years.

I honestly like the strong defender then the strong scorer too. But considering that Rudy on offense if properly worked in is arguably the best screen and roller in the NBA and the best finisher in the NBA (has the stats to back it up). Rudy is actually elite on both ends IF used properly.

Think if a good-great PG like Chris Paul was this teams PG right now, how many easy dunks a game would Rudy be getting?

Instead we have DLO who is unable to screen and role and Ant who is a work in progress but shows tremendous upside still. Nowell who has work to go for sure as a passer.

If anyone should be succeeding now with Gobert it is DLO. He should have 4-5 assist lob dunks a game.

Again... if this and this and this happens... Gobert could be more successful. Ok, but...

With a guy like Durant (who actually has excelled on both sides of the court for different teams with vastly different teammates)... "this and this and this" doesn't have to happen for him to be one of the very best players.

There might be two or three dozen players in the NBA who don't need the perfect storm around them to be successful. The Timberwolves mortgaged their future with one of the largest hauls in NBA history for a guy who isn't in that group. Actually, it's for a guy who thus far has taken more away from the team's two best players (Towns and Edwards) than helped them.

That's what makes the trade so puzzling.


[Note: Many Gobert detractors thought he was a bit of a system player. And thus far, they haven't been proven wrong. He hasn't been as effective outside of the friendly confines of SLC with a very established system and identity carved out for him. If that's what the Wolves want to do... fine. But that's not what any of the narratives were at the time. He was deemed a plug-and-play upgrade for immediate success and playoff runs starting as early as 2023.]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:But yet again... should everybody else have to change the offense for the new guy?

After all, it was a top 8 offense last season (top 3 for the 2nd half of the season). And it's been an elite offense without Gobert again this season.

It plummets with him on the court... despite his "elite" offensive skills. I'm not suggesting the Wolves shouldn't run more PnR or anything. Only that if the other players have to change how they play to accommodate the very specific and limited elite skills of Gobert... only to be less effective... it may not be a great trade.

Right or wrong, today's NBA players might not dig compromising who they are for a guy they may not like to play with all that much... ESPECIALLY if successful results aren't immediately clear.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:But yet again... should everybody else have to change the offense for the new guy?

After all, it was a top 8 offense last season (top 3 for the 2nd half of the season). And it's been an elite offense without Gobert again this season.

It plummets with him on the court... despite his "elite" offensive skills. I'm not suggesting the Wolves shouldn't run more PnR or anything. Only that if the other players have to change how they play to accommodate the very specific and limited elite skills of Gobert... only to be less effective... it may not be a great trade.

Right or wrong, today's NBA players might not dig compromising who they are for a guy they may not like to play with all that much... ESPECIALLY if successful results aren't immediately clear.

I think it's a bit of an aberration. I don't think because Rudy is on the floor that suddenly everything goes to shit for everyone else. You can't convince me that Utah either had that much better players or coaching! I just don't buy it and I expect the numbers to significantly improve over the course of the season.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:But yet again... should everybody else have to change the offense for the new guy?

After all, it was a top 8 offense last season (top 3 for the 2nd half of the season). And it's been an elite offense without Gobert again this season.

It plummets with him on the court... despite his "elite" offensive skills. I'm not suggesting the Wolves shouldn't run more PnR or anything. Only that if the other players have to change how they play to accommodate the very specific and limited elite skills of Gobert... only to be less effective... it may not be a great trade.

Right or wrong, today's NBA players might not dig compromising who they are for a guy they may not like to play with all that much... ESPECIALLY if successful results aren't immediately clear.

I think it's a bit of an aberration. I don't think because Rudy is on the floor that suddenly everything goes to shit for everyone else. You can't convince me that Utah either had that much better players or coaching! I just don't buy it and I expect the numbers to significantly improve over the course of the season.

Might be a worse fit?

Whatever the case... we're all hoping you're right and the early angst with the trade subsides.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:To be fair...

Vanderbilt played about 25 mpg overall -- which is about 6+ fewer minutes per game than Gobert -- and his minutes actually went down when the Wolves were really rolling offensively the second half of the season. Vanderbilt also had the lowest usage rate on the team (10.9%).

There really was very little offense involving him directly. He was the epitome of a garbage time guy in the dunker's spot. Gobert has voiced his salty side in recent years when he hasn't gotten enough touches. His usage rate is down slightly from those days (15.8%), but it's still significantly more than Vanderbilt. And it doesn't include all the times he sets a screen where he doesn't get the ball. I'll let Cam or somebody else chase down and parse those numbers, but it's probably safe to say it's more than Vanderbilt as well.

Point being... Gobert is a significantly larger piece of the puzzle on offense directly in the middle of the action (for longer periods in the game) than Vanderbilt was.