Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'm alone again in this regard, but seeing the deals that went down at or before the deadline made me feel even better about the D'Angelo Russell - Andrew Wiggins trade. I know there are plenty here that see that deal very differently than me. I understand that and I'm not trying to change your mind. Most of us are firm in our positions while some are still in the "wait and see" category. But I look at what was dealt in trades for Nikola Vucevic and Aaron Gordon, specifically, and I'm amazed that teams coughed up what they did. Not to mention, they weren't even shipping out a big contract with it, which is completely different from the situation Minnesota was working with.

A lot of my positive feelings on the Russell/Wiggins trade boil down to what level of play D-Lo brings when healthy and next to Karl-Anthony Towns, which we have yet to see in totality. Admittedly, he hasn't played like the player he's been the last two years, which is disappointing. I totally get that. But at his best he's better than both Vucevic and Gordon in my opinion given their positions and their importance. Teams paid a premium for those two -- more than what was spent on Russell, arguably, without having to unload a max contract in the process. Multiple picks with little protection and young talent for Vooch, and a future pick plus high-upside talent for AG? Those are overpays, folks.

If Minnesota gets the version of D-Lo that he's been in recent years, and they're able to get some luck on their side by retaining their own pick this off-season, I think the deal will look even better next year. So much so that national media will have to grade that trade very differently the third time around.

I'd be interested in a more in-depth take on Vucevic. All the stats/metrics favor Vucevic by a significant margin over Russell.

For example, Russell has been higher than 1.8 in Win Shares one time in his career ('19). Vucevic's lowest Win Shares total is 1.8... as a rookie.

Russell has been above 1.4 VORP only one time ('19). Vucevic hasn't been below 1.8 VORP since 2014.

I remember when Vuc was basically considered a poor defensive center that was sort of just a put up stats guy that wasn't really a winning player.

I used to think that 4 years ago, monster. But he has been a plus DRPM center the past three years, so he seems to have turned that around. And 24.5/11.8/3.8 is an extraordinary line, especially when combined with his near 41% 3-point shooting this season. One of the interesting story lines will be how he and Zach co-exist, but he's certainly a nice win-now pickup for the Bulls.

FNG wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'm alone again in this regard, but seeing the deals that went down at or before the deadline made me feel even better about the D'Angelo Russell - Andrew Wiggins trade. I know there are plenty here that see that deal very differently than me. I understand that and I'm not trying to change your mind. Most of us are firm in our positions while some are still in the "wait and see" category. But I look at what was dealt in trades for Nikola Vucevic and Aaron Gordon, specifically, and I'm amazed that teams coughed up what they did. Not to mention, they weren't even shipping out a big contract with it, which is completely different from the situation Minnesota was working with.

A lot of my positive feelings on the Russell/Wiggins trade boil down to what level of play D-Lo brings when healthy and next to Karl-Anthony Towns, which we have yet to see in totality. Admittedly, he hasn't played like the player he's been the last two years, which is disappointing. I totally get that. But at his best he's better than both Vucevic and Gordon in my opinion given their positions and their importance. Teams paid a premium for those two -- more than what was spent on Russell, arguably, without having to unload a max contract in the process. Multiple picks with little protection and young talent for Vooch, and a future pick plus high-upside talent for AG? Those are overpays, folks.

If Minnesota gets the version of D-Lo that he's been in recent years, and they're able to get some luck on their side by retaining their own pick this off-season, I think the deal will look even better next year. So much so that national media will have to grade that trade very differently the third time around.

I'd be interested in a more in-depth take on Vucevic. All the stats/metrics favor Vucevic by a significant margin over Russell.

For example, Russell has been higher than 1.8 in Win Shares one time in his career ('19). Vucevic's lowest Win Shares total is 1.8... as a rookie.

Russell has been above 1.4 VORP only one time ('19). Vucevic hasn't been below 1.8 VORP since 2014.

I remember when Vuc was basically considered a poor defensive center that was sort of just a put up stats guy that wasn't really a winning player.

I used to think that 4 years ago, monster. But he has been a plus DRPM center the past three years, so he seems to have turned that around. And 24.5/11.8/3.8 is an extraordinary line, especially when combined with his near 41% 3-point shooting this season. One of the interesting story lines will be how he and Zach co-exist, but he's certainly a nice win-now pickup for the Bulls.

For those who've long anguished over the Lavine/Butler trade... this is your time to see what it would have been like to see Towns and the new-and-improved LaVine together.

As I read different analyses this morning about yesterday's lack of activity by the Wolves, one positive is coming more into focus. It seems that the player that might have gotten the most offers was Jaden McDaniels. Many of us here are cautiously optimistic about what this skinny 20-year-old can become, so good on Rosas for not letting him go. It appears that the league is seeing what we're seeing.

Yeah, I can't say that I agree, FNG.

If I'm a Warriors fan, I look at that trade as a huge disappointment in a number of ways. Firstly, they signaled the end of their own dynasty and championship window by adding Andrew Wiggins to their payroll. His $30-million per year salary puts Golden State in a position where they won't be able to make any significant free agent signings to help Steph Curry and Klay Thompson win another championship. And as Wolves fans know all too well, Wiggins isn't easily movable even if you claim that he's an improved player this year. And while they did receive a top-three protected first-round pick from Minnesota in the deal, that pick still has a 40-percent chance of not being theirs this off-season due to the Wolves having the worst record in basketball. It's not guaranteed that they receive that pick this year. If it was then this would be a significantly different conversation, but alas the ping pong balls have not been shuffled.

Lastly, it's often forgotten that in order to make the sign-and-trade for D'Angelo Russell in the first place the Warriors had to dump Andre Iguodala's contract to stay under the hard cap. They sent a first-round pick to the Grizzlies that is top-four protected in 2024, protected No. 1 overall in 2025, and unprotected in 2026. With the way things look for Golden State they might be in serious trouble there in the coming years.

So what they're left with is an uninspiring-yet-expensive Wiggins, Minnesota's first-round pick that may not convert this year, and a hefty luxury tax bill. And at the same time they're without one of their own future firsts because they shuffled pieces around just to get into this mess. All of this while their core pieces get older, less durable, more expensive, and without a real chance at winning another championship in the near future... It's tough for me to feel very good about their situation if I was a Warriors fan.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

FNG wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'm alone again in this regard, but seeing the deals that went down at or before the deadline made me feel even better about the D'Angelo Russell - Andrew Wiggins trade. I know there are plenty here that see that deal very differently than me. I understand that and I'm not trying to change your mind. Most of us are firm in our positions while some are still in the "wait and see" category. But I look at what was dealt in trades for Nikola Vucevic and Aaron Gordon, specifically, and I'm amazed that teams coughed up what they did. Not to mention, they weren't even shipping out a big contract with it, which is completely different from the situation Minnesota was working with.

A lot of my positive feelings on the Russell/Wiggins trade boil down to what level of play D-Lo brings when healthy and next to Karl-Anthony Towns, which we have yet to see in totality. Admittedly, he hasn't played like the player he's been the last two years, which is disappointing. I totally get that. But at his best he's better than both Vucevic and Gordon in my opinion given their positions and their importance. Teams paid a premium for those two -- more than what was spent on Russell, arguably, without having to unload a max contract in the process. Multiple picks with little protection and young talent for Vooch, and a future pick plus high-upside talent for AG? Those are overpays, folks.

If Minnesota gets the version of D-Lo that he's been in recent years, and they're able to get some luck on their side by retaining their own pick this off-season, I think the deal will look even better next year. So much so that national media will have to grade that trade very differently the third time around.

I'd be interested in a more in-depth take on Vucevic. All the stats/metrics favor Vucevic by a significant margin over Russell.

For example, Russell has been higher than 1.8 in Win Shares one time in his career ('19). Vucevic's lowest Win Shares total is 1.8... as a rookie.

Russell has been above 1.4 VORP only one time ('19). Vucevic hasn't been below 1.8 VORP since 2014.

I remember when Vuc was basically considered a poor defensive center that was sort of just a put up stats guy that wasn't really a winning player.

I used to think that 4 years ago, monster. But he has been a plus DRPM center the past three years, so he seems to have turned that around. And 24.5/11.8/3.8 is an extraordinary line, especially when combined with his near 41% 3-point shooting this season. One of the interesting story lines will be how he and Zach co-exist, but he's certainly a nice win-now pickup for the Bulls.

For those who've long anguished over the Lavine/Butler trade... this is your time to see what it would have been like to see Towns and the new-and-improved LaVine together.

We still don't know for sure what Beasley really is although it's looking good right now but considering his contract having him as basically a Lavine replacement is...not the worse sort of outcome compared to some moves both for the Wolves and other teams around the league.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'm alone again in this regard, but seeing the deals that went down at or before the deadline made me feel even better about the D'Angelo Russell - Andrew Wiggins trade. I know there are plenty here that see that deal very differently than me. I understand that and I'm not trying to change your mind. Most of us are firm in our positions while some are still in the "wait and see" category. But I look at what was dealt in trades for Nikola Vucevic and Aaron Gordon, specifically, and I'm amazed that teams coughed up what they did. Not to mention, they weren't even shipping out a big contract with it, which is completely different from the situation Minnesota was working with.

A lot of my positive feelings on the Russell/Wiggins trade boil down to what level of play D-Lo brings when healthy and next to Karl-Anthony Towns, which we have yet to see in totality. Admittedly, he hasn't played like the player he's been the last two years, which is disappointing. I totally get that. But at his best he's better than both Vucevic and Gordon in my opinion given their positions and their importance. Teams paid a premium for those two -- more than what was spent on Russell, arguably, without having to unload a max contract in the process. Multiple picks with little protection and young talent for Vooch, and a future pick plus high-upside talent for AG? Those are overpays, folks.

If Minnesota gets the version of D-Lo that he's been in recent years, and they're able to get some luck on their side by retaining their own pick this off-season, I think the deal will look even better next year. So much so that national media will have to grade that trade very differently the third time around.

I'd be interested in a more in-depth take on Vucevic. All the stats/metrics favor Vucevic by a significant margin over Russell.

For example, Russell has been higher than 1.8 in Win Shares one time in his career ('19). Vucevic's lowest Win Shares total is 1.8... as a rookie.

Russell has been above 1.4 VORP only one time ('19). Vucevic hasn't been below 1.8 VORP since 2014.

I remember when Vuc was basically considered a poor defensive center that was sort of just a put up stats guy that wasn't really a winning player.

Sure. I was going to make the comparison that Vucevic is a lot closer comparison to Towns than Russell. I don't think the comparisons stop at statistics though. Both have played for two mostly inept franchises.

Remember the photo where all of the Hennigan's regime's free agent targets were on a whiteboard behind them... including a potential trade involving one of the team's young core pieces? That was very Kahn-esque.

Comparing Vuc and Towns is interesting.

And yet it wasn't that long ago the Magic won 42 games and then made the playoffs the next year. Oh to have that track record...even if it was in the east. Lol

It will be interesting to see how the Magic do on these deals. I remember you and I going around about whether or not Memphis got anything worthwhile for Marc Gasol. Jonas V still isn't Gasol but he has been a good player for them and signed for a reasonable deal. This year he is averaging basically 16 points 12 rebound in under 28mpg on a team that's around .500. Not every deal has to be knocked out of the park but getting a really solid guy that helps more than hurts can exude relative competence.

Camden wrote:Yeah, I can't say that I agree, FNG.

If I'm a Warriors fan, I look at that trade as a huge disappointment in a number of ways. Firstly, they signaled the end of their own dynasty and championship window by adding Andrew Wiggins to their payroll. His $30-million per year salary puts Golden State in a position where they won't be able to make any significant free agent signings to help Steph Curry and Klay Thompson win another championship. And as Wolves fans know all too well, Wiggins isn't easily movable even if you claim that he's an improved player this year. And while they did receive a top-three protected first-round pick from Minnesota in the deal, that pick still has a 40-percent chance of not being theirs this off-season due to the Wolves having the worst record in basketball. It's not guaranteed that they receive that pick this year. If it was then this would be a significantly different conversation, but alas the ping pong balls have not been shuffled.

Lastly, it's often forgotten that in order to make the sign-and-trade for D'Angelo Russell in the first place the Warriors had to dump Andre Iguodala's contract to stay under the hard cap. They sent a first-round pick to the Grizzlies that is top-four protected in 2024, protected No. 1 overall in 2025, and unprotected in 2026. With the way things look for Golden State they might be in serious trouble there in the coming years.

So what they're left with is an uninspiring-yet-expensive Wiggins, Minnesota's first-round pick that may not convert this year, and a hefty luxury tax bill. And at the same time they're without one of their own future firsts because they shuffled pieces around just to get into this mess. All of this while their core pieces get older, less durable, more expensive, and without a real chance at winning another championship in the near future... It's tough for me to feel very good about their situation if I was a Warriors fan.

So you're saying that the Warriors screwed up by signing Russell in the first place?

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'm alone again in this regard, but seeing the deals that went down at or before the deadline made me feel even better about the D'Angelo Russell - Andrew Wiggins trade. I know there are plenty here that see that deal very differently than me. I understand that and I'm not trying to change your mind. Most of us are firm in our positions while some are still in the "wait and see" category. But I look at what was dealt in trades for Nikola Vucevic and Aaron Gordon, specifically, and I'm amazed that teams coughed up what they did. Not to mention, they weren't even shipping out a big contract with it, which is completely different from the situation Minnesota was working with.

A lot of my positive feelings on the Russell/Wiggins trade boil down to what level of play D-Lo brings when healthy and next to Karl-Anthony Towns, which we have yet to see in totality. Admittedly, he hasn't played like the player he's been the last two years, which is disappointing. I totally get that. But at his best he's better than both Vucevic and Gordon in my opinion given their positions and their importance. Teams paid a premium for those two -- more than what was spent on Russell, arguably, without having to unload a max contract in the process. Multiple picks with little protection and young talent for Vooch, and a future pick plus high-upside talent for AG? Those are overpays, folks.

If Minnesota gets the version of D-Lo that he's been in recent years, and they're able to get some luck on their side by retaining their own pick this off-season, I think the deal will look even better next year. So much so that national media will have to grade that trade very differently the third time around.

I'd be interested in a more in-depth take on Vucevic. All the stats/metrics favor Vucevic by a significant margin over Russell.

For example, Russell has been higher than 1.8 in Win Shares one time in his career ('19). Vucevic's lowest Win Shares total is 1.8... as a rookie.

Russell has been above 1.4 VORP only one time ('19). Vucevic hasn't been below 1.8 VORP since 2014.

I remember when Vuc was basically considered a poor defensive center that was sort of just a put up stats guy that wasn't really a winning player.

Sure. I was going to make the comparison that Vucevic is a lot closer comparison to Towns than Russell. I don't think the comparisons stop at statistics though. Both have played for two mostly inept franchises.

Remember the photo where all of the Hennigan's regime's free agent targets were on a whiteboard behind them... including a potential trade involving one of the team's young core pieces? That was very Kahn-esque.

Comparing Vuc and Towns is interesting.

And yet it wasn't that long ago the Magic won 42 games and then made the playoffs the next year. Oh to have that track record...even if it was in the east. Lol

It will be interesting to see how the Magic do on these deals. I remember you and I going around about whether or not Memphis got anything worthwhile for Marc Gasol. Jonas V still isn't Gasol but he has been a good player for them and signed for a reasonable deal. This year he is averaging basically 16 points 12 rebound in under 28mpg on a team that's around .500. Not every deal has to be knocked out of the park but getting a really solid guy that helps more than hurts can exude relative competence.

I was opinionated about a Gasol / Valunciuinisasflajijas discussion?

Whoa.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:So you're saying that the Warriors screwed up by signing Russell in the first place?

I'm saying that it's not sunshine and rainbows for Golden State like FNG made it out to be -- far from it, in my opinion.

And yes, the Warriors shelling out a first-round pick to Brooklyn in the Kevin Durant sign-and-trade and then a first-round pick with Andre Iguodala to Memphis just to acquire D-Lo and stay under the hard cap with the league knowing they'd have to flip D-Lo later on probably wasn't the smartest play for them. There's a series of moves there that look pretty bad to me and they stem from getting involved with D-Lo, though not actually D-Lo's fault necessarily.

Cam, I can speak for Warriors fans unlike you. I am a Warriors fan as well as a Wolves fan. Warriors fans love the trade. Bay Area media also think the Warriors made out very well.